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John Mack + Budd Hopkins : 講演と対談

· 約129分
gh_2020916_mack_budd.jpg

前置き​

既に両者とも故人となったが、この両者の講演とそれに続く対談動画は貴重な価値がある。

要旨​

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異星人との遭遇：現実の再定義

この講演は、John MackとBudd Hopkinsという二人の著名な研究者が、‌‌異星人との遭遇経験‌‌、特に誘拐（アブダクション）現象について議論するものです。

彼らは、‌‌被験者たちの証言‌‌を基に、この現象の‌‌現実性、心理的影響、そして世界観への影響‌‌を探求しています。Mackは、この経験がしばしば‌‌精神的な成長や意識の変容‌‌を促すと主張する一方、Hopkinsは、これが‌‌心理的外傷や操作‌‌を伴うものであり、異星人の意図には‌‌深い不信感‌‌を抱くべきだと強調します。

両者は、この現象が私たちの‌‌現実認識の枠組み‌‌を広げる可能性を秘めていることでは一致していますが、その‌‌解釈と倫理的側面‌‌において異なる視点を示しています。

目次​

  1. 前置き
  2. 要旨
  3. 全体俯瞰
    1. I. 現象の性質と受容への抵抗
    2. II. 体験の内容と影響
    3. III. ホプキンスとマックの視点の相違点と共通点
    4. IV. 人間性への影響と課題
    5. まとめ
  4. abduction 現象 : John Mack の視点
  5. abduction 現象 : Budd Hopkins の視点
  6. チャネリングに対する両者の見解
    1. バッド・ホプキンスの見解
    2. ジョン・マック博士の見解
    3. 調査方法と課題の文脈におけるチャネリング
  7. ET の動機と行動 : John Mack の推測
  8. ET の動機と行動 : Budd Hopkins の推測
  9. John Mack の提言
  10. Budd Hopkins の提言
  11. 情報源
  12. 文字起こし（話者識別）

全体俯瞰​

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異星人遭遇の深層: 誘拐と意識の変容 – ブリーフィング資料

このブリーフィング資料は、ジョン・マック博士とバッド・ホプキンスの講演とその後の対談からの抜粋に基づき、異星人誘拐現象に関する主要なテーマ、アイデア、重要な事実をまとめたものです。

I. 現象の性質と受容への抵抗​

  • 現象の複雑性: ジョン・マック博士は、この現象を「計り知れない複雑さ、意味、そして宇宙における我々自身の理解のための価値を持つ現象」と捉え、まだその本質を理解し始めたばかりであると述べています (00:47:56)。
  • 「現実」の問いと存在論的ショック: マック博士は、誘拐体験は「我々の現実では不可能」な事柄であり、体験者にとっては「我々にとってと同じくらい不可能」であるため、「存在論的ショック」を伴うと指摘します (00:48:32)。ホプキンスも、この現象が「完全に物理的」であると同時に「完全に超常的」であるという事実が、「科学者が受け入れるのが最も難しい」点であると強調します (01:02:44)。
  • 既存のカテゴリへの抵抗: マック博士は、この現象が「我々のカテゴリに絶対的に反する」ため、「我々の世界観では知識を習得することができない」と述べます (00:52:35)。それは「物理的であると同時に、あたかも別の次元にいるかのよう」であり、「私たちの現実のより深い構造へと私たちを導く」ものです (00:53:08)。
  • 知の拡張への招待: マック博士は、この現象が「現実の概念を拡張し、目に見えない現実を、おそらくはより深い現実、しかし別の現実として含めること」を促していると主張します (00:53:08)。そして、物質世界に適用される「証明の枠組み」では、この現象の秘密は解き明かされないだろうと述べています (00:55:17)。

II. 体験の内容と影響​

  • 体験の一貫性: マック博士は、約130人の体験者と集中的に仕事をしてきた中で、「話は一貫しており、強い感情をもって語られ、適切な自己疑念を伴う」と述べています。彼らは他の人々も同じ体験をしていると聞いて「衝撃を受ける」と語り、体験によって「得るものは何もなく」、いかなる既知のカテゴリにも当てはまらない、とされます (00:47:09)。
  • 多層的な側面: マック博士は、この現象には以下の3つの主要な側面があると説明します。
    • イベントレベルの側面: 「侵入的で、レイプのような側面」を伴うトラウマ的な部分。物理的証拠と主観的証拠が組み合わさって全体像を形成し、「存在論的ショック」を引き起こします (00:48:32)。
    • 情報的な側面: 環境破壊、広範な汚染など、地球の破壊を示すイメージが「ビイング」によって「マインド・トゥ・マインドのコミュニケーション」で伝えられ、個人の意識に「計り知れない影響」を与え、人生の選択に深く影響します (00:49:01)。マック博士はこれを「単なる欺瞞ではなく、現象自体にとって重要な部分」と考えています。
    • スピリチュアルな側面: 人々が「源（Source）」と繋がり、故郷（Home）に戻るような感覚。「存在の深み、神性」に近づいたと感じ、これが体験の根本的な部分であると多くの体験者は考えています (00:49:48)。ある若い女性は、エイリアンが来る目的は「私たち、源の記憶を取り戻し、私たち自身を力づけること」だと述べています (00:50:27)。
  • エイリアンの多様性: マック博士は、「一種類のエイリアンが認識されているわけではない」とし、最も一般的なのは「大きな黒い目を持つグレイ」であるが、「他にも様々な種類の存在がいる」と指摘しています (00:50:27)。

III. ホプキンスとマックの視点の相違点と共通点​

A. エイリアンの意図と体験の解釈​

  • ホプキンスの視点（警戒とトラウマ）:

    • 欺瞞性: ホプキンスはエイリアンが「非常に欺瞞的であり、秘密裏に行動する」と断言します (00:57:28)。「スクリーン記憶（Screen memories）」を作り出し、体験者の記憶を盗むなど、「欺瞞の行為であり、弁護できるものではない」と述べています (00:57:28)。
    • 操作と感情の欠如: 体験者が「深い愛」を感じさせられる操作の例を挙げ、これは「エイリアンの操作手段の一部」であると説明します (00:58:08)。彼らは「人間が持つ感情的な生活」に「並外れて好奇心旺盛」であるものの、彼ら自身はそれを持っていないようです (01:19:49)。
    • 心理的影響: 誘拐体験は人々に「心理的な傷」を残し、「低い自尊心、身体・肉体・セクシュアリティに対するある種の解離、人々を信頼することの困難さ」といった心理的欠陥を引き起こすと指摘します。これは「レイプ被害者に起こることと非常に似ている」とエリザベス・スレイター博士の研究を引用して述べています (01:00:03)。
    • 「傍観者」としてのエイリアン: ホプキンスは、エイリアンが地球の「壊滅的な光景」を見せるのは、人間の反応を「テスト」するため、あるいは「好奇心」からであり、彼らが「人間が互いにどう関係しているか、人間を特に人間たらしめているもの」に興味を持っていると推測します (01:19:49)。彼らは「最も素晴らしい人間的特質を吸収しようとしている」と見ており、「貧しい、希薄な、精神的な存在」であると対比させています (01:28:15)。
    • 「最善の復讐」: ホプキンスは、体験者が「自分自身の人生の豊かさ、内なる強さに目を向け」、「エイリアンのことを可能な限り考えないようにして、普通の生活を送る」ことを促します (01:39:08)。彼はエイリアンを「信頼しない」と明言し、人類が「自分たちの内にあるもの」から学ぶべきだと主張します (01:39:54)。

  • マック博士の視点（成長と意識の拡張）:

    • 関係性の変容: エイリアンとの関係性は「冷たく、異質」というホプキンスの見方に対し、マック博士は「恐怖と向き合い、謎に取り組む」ことで「よりスピリチュアルに変化し、成長が起こる」と述べます (00:51:06)。「一時的な愛情深い繋がり」だけでなく、「これらの次元を超えて関係性を通して続く、より深い絆」が形成されることもあります (00:51:43)。
    • コミュニケーションの努力: マック博士は、地球の荒廃のイメージは「単に私たちの反応をテストするだけでなく、私たち自身に何かを伝えようとする必死の努力」であると解釈します (01:21:35)。彼らは「私たちを救う」わけではなく、「私たちの意識を何が起こっているかに開かせる」ことを目的としていると見ています (01:22:08)。
    • 「スピリチュアルな成長」: マック博士は、この現象は「多くの人々にとって非常にトラウマ的」であると認めつつも (01:08:39)、体験者が「人生を与えるプロセスの一部」だと感じたり、「経験の質全体が変わる」ことがあります (01:09:07)。彼はエイリアンが「素晴らしいスピリチュアルな存在」であるとは言いませんが、その「効果はしばしば何らかのスピリチュアルな成長や拡張」であると見ています (01:29:07)。
    • 「宇宙からのアウトリーチプログラム」: マック博士は、この現象を「宇宙から精神的に障害のある者へのアウトリーチプログラム」と表現し、「私たちの意識を、私たちのマインドセットの制約を通して作り出したこの殻を破ることで、私たちが経験できる広大な現実の範囲があるという事実に開かせる」ものだと考えています (01:26:38)。
    • 「宇宙的自己中心主義への挑戦」: マック博士は、この現象が「宇宙で唯一優れた知性であるという傲慢さを打ち砕く」ことは「概ね良いこと」だと考えています (01:41:01)。そして、「人類中心主義」を損なう点で「良いこと」であると述べています (01:41:01)。

B. 現実の物理性 vs. 超常性​

  • 共通の認識: 両者とも、この現象が「完全に物理的」な要素（物理的痕跡、レーダーでの検出など）と「完全に超常的」な要素（テレパシー、壁を通り抜ける能力、瞬間移動など）を併せ持つことを認めています (01:02:15)。

C. 調査方法とメディアの影響​

  • 催眠誘導: 催眠誘導の使用は、外部からの批判の対象となっています (01:32:30)。

    • マック博士の立場: 彼は催眠を「脱神秘化」しようとし、情報の「大部分は通常の会話から得られる」と述べます (01:33:00)。「催眠誘導」は「単純なリラクゼーション運動」に過ぎず、体験者が「人生の出来事を思い出す」のを助けるものとして使用されます (01:33:42)。
    • ホプキンスの立場: 彼は催眠誘導セッションに「何十ものテスト質問」を組み込み、体験者が「誘導可能かどうか」を内部的にテストしていると説明します (01:34:20)。

  • メディアの影響: 両者とも、誘拐体験がメディアから「作り出されたもの」ではないと主張します。マック博士は、メディアは「言語を与えるのに役立つ用語」を提供するかもしれないが、「深く抱いている強力な体験を、テレビで数枚のイメージを見ただけで人々が作り出す」ことはないと述べます (01:16:06)。ホプキンスも、「この現象では、メディアが研究に続く」と補足しています (01:17:08)。

IV. 人間性への影響と課題​

  • 最重要性: ホプキンスは、UFO現象が起こっているとすれば、「人類史上最も重要な出来事」であると述べています (00:56:48)。
  • 人間性への再認識: ホプキンスは、体験者が「人間であることの特殊性」を再認識し、人類の「愛し合い、感情を持ち、ジョークを言い、愛し合い、子供たちを大切にし、地球を大切にする」といった豊かさに気づくことを重視しています (01:28:15)。
  • 「神か悪魔か」の枠組みの否定: ホプキンスは、人々がこの現象を「神々や悪魔のカテゴリに押し込もうとする」が、「それは当てはまらない」と述べます (01:17:33)。
  • 答えではなく、問いの深化: マック博士は、この現象から「得られる答えはない」が、「問いを深めること」が重要であると繰り返します (00:48:32)。そして、「他の現実が存在する可能性に心を開くこと」を提案しています (01:25:20)。

まとめ​

ジョン・マック博士とバッド・ホプキンスは、異星人誘拐現象の存在と、それがもたらす深刻な心理的・存在論的影響については共通の認識を持っています。しかし、その解釈、特にエイリアンの意図と体験の最終的な意味合いについては異なる視点を持っています。

ホプキンスはエイリアンの欺瞞性とトラウマ性に焦点を当て、人間性の内なる強さと自己回復を強調する一方、マック博士は体験を通じて得られるスピリチュアルな成長、意識の拡張、そして人類の「宇宙的自己中心主義」への挑戦というより広い可能性に注目しています。

両者とも、この現象が既存の科学的・哲学的枠組みを超越するものであり、現実と知識に対する私たちの理解を再考するよう促している点で一致しています。

abduction 現象 : John Mack の視点​

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ジョン・マック博士は、この現象の性質について、複数の側面から深く探求する視点を持っています。彼は当初、エイリアンに連れて行かれたと主張する人々を「狂っているに違いない」「ある種の新しい精神病」と考えていましたが、彼らと対話する中で、その誠実さや体験の一貫性、そして体験者自身がその現実を疑っている様子から、自身の見方を改めました。彼はこの現象を「‌‌自己、私たちが宇宙で何者であるかを理解するための、計り知れない複雑さ、意味、価値を持つ現象‌‌」と捉えています。

マック博士の視点におけるこの現象の主要な特徴は以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌現実の問題（存在論的な問題）への関心‌‌ マック博士は哲学で「存在論的な問題」と呼ばれる「現実の問題」に非常に興味を持っています。彼は、体験者たちが描写する内容が私たちの現実では不可能であるという事実に直面し、これによって「可能だと考えることの限界を広げる」選択を迫られると述べています。体験は単なるトラウマだけでなく、「‌‌存在論的ショック‌‌」をもたらします。これは、体験者にとってその出来事が私たちにとってと同じくらいありえないことであるためです。この現象は私たちの既成概念に全く当てはまらず、私たちのカテゴリーを完全に否定すると考えています。それは「物理的であると同時に、あたかも別の次元にいるかのよう」であり、私たちの認識の枠組みを超えています。

  2. ‌‌現象の多面的な側面‌‌ マック博士は、この現象を複数の重要な要素から構成されていると見ています。

    • ‌‌出来事レベルの側面‌‌: これは一部の人々にとって「侵入的で、レイプのような側面」を伴う、主観的要素と客観的要素が混じり合ったトラウマ的な部分です。物理的な証拠も存在し、主観的な証拠と組み合わさって全体像を形成します。
    • ‌‌情報レベルの側面‌‌: エイリアンは、惑星が破壊され、広範囲に汚染された地球の光景をテレビのようなモニターや直接的な意識の伝達を通じて見せることがあります。これは個人の意識に大きな影響を与え、その後の人生の選択に深く関わります。マック博士は、これを単なる欺瞞ではなく、「‌‌現象自体における重要な部分‌‌」であり、「私たち自身について何かを私たちに伝えようとする必死の努力」だと信じています。
    • ‌‌スピリチュアルな側面‌‌: 人々は、自分たちが何らかの形で「源（Source）」に開かれ、「故郷（Home）」、すなわち「万物のスピリチュアルな起源」に戻っているような感覚を抱きます。多くの体験者は、これが体験の根本的な部分であり、存在の奥深さや神性（Godhead）に近づいていると感じます。ある若い女性は、エイリアンが来ることを許す「源の目的」は、「私たち自身の記憶、源の記憶を取り戻し、私たち自身を力づけること」だと述べています。マック博士自身は、エイリアンがスピリチュアルな存在だと断言しているわけではなく、むしろこの現象が「‌‌何らかのスピリチュアルな成長や拡大‌‌」をもたらすことが多いと強調しています。

  3. ‌‌エイリアンとの関係性‌‌ マック博士は、バッド・ホプキンスがエイリアンとの関係を「冷たく異質」と捉えているのに対し、彼の経験では、体験者が恐怖や謎に取り組むことで、関係性は「‌‌よりスピリチュアルに変容し、成長が起こる‌‌」と述べています。時には「時空を超えて続く深い絆」が生まれることもあり、これは「非常に深く、強力な現象」です。彼は、ホプキンスが描写する「冷たい無関心」が存在することを認めつつも、時間をかけて進化する「‌‌深く、強烈な愛情の絆‌‌」を体験する識別力の高い人々もいると指摘しています。これらの絆は、地上で感じられるものよりも「何倍も強力」だと表現されることもあります。

  4. ‌‌既存のカテゴリーと科学的証明への挑戦‌‌ この現象は、実験や基本的な科学的手法を通じて知識を習得する私たちの世界観には収まりきりません。それは「カテゴリーを越え、場所を特定できない」ものであり、私たちの「宇宙的なエゴイズム」に挑戦します。マック博士は、この現象が従来の「証明の枠組み」で解明されることはないと考えており、むしろ「‌‌現実に関する他の認識方法を信頼し、受け入れることによって‌‌」私たちの理解が深まり、自己が拡大すると述べています。彼は、メキシコの心理学者の「測定できないものは存在しない」という見解に対し、臨死体験や体外離脱体験と同様に、この現象は「‌‌微細な領域から得られる知識を尊重する‌‌」よう私たちを誘っていると主張しています。

  5. ‌‌トラウマと変容のバランス‌‌ マック博士は、エイリアンによる体験が「深く悩ましく、トラウマ的で、心を乱す」ものであり、自殺を考えるほど深刻な場合があることを否定しません。抵抗不能な状態での連行、社会からの孤立、存在論的なショック、そしていつでも起こりうる再発など、多くのトラウマ要因を認めています。しかし同時に、彼が診てきた体験者の多くは、それを乗り越える能力が高く、最小限の助けで統合し、「‌‌生命を与えるプロセスの一部‌‌」だと感じている傾向があると述べています。体験の質は、それに取り組むことで変化していくと彼は見ています。

  6. ‌‌宇宙的視点と人類中心主義の打破‌‌ マック博士は、ホプキンスよりも「保護的で人類中心主義的ではない」と感じています。彼はこの現象が私たちにとって「宇宙における自分たちの存在に関して非常に広範な意味を持つ」と考えており、宇宙で唯一の優れた知性であるという「傲慢さを打ち砕く」ものは、一般的に良いことだと捉えています。この現象は、私たちの「‌‌宇宙的エゴイズム‌‌」に疑問を投げかけ、現在の快適な地球環境を超えた「‌‌広大な他の現実の領域‌‌」へと私たちを開放する可能性を秘めていると結論付けています。

  7. ‌‌調査手法への見解‌‌ 彼は、催眠術（リグレッション）について「神秘性を払拭」しようとしています。情報の大部分は通常の会話から得られ、催眠は「単純なリラクゼーション運動」に過ぎず、社会的刺激を遮断し、人がリラックスして人生の出来事を思い出すことを促すものだと説明しています。また、チャネリングについては、情報の評価方法について批判的であるべきだと指摘し、地球上の知識では知り得ない情報が得られる可能性がある点に興味を示しています。

これらの点から、ジョン・マック博士は、UFOやエイリアンの遭遇現象を、私たちの現実観、自己認識、そして宇宙における人類の立ち位置を根本から問い直し、拡大させる可能性を秘めた、複雑で多層的な現象として捉えていることがわかります。彼は、既存の科学的枠組みや信仰体系に固執するのではなく、未知の現実を受け入れ、新たな知識の道を拓くことの重要性を訴えています。

abduction 現象 : Budd Hopkins の視点​

AI

バッド・ホプキンスは、エイリアンによる誘拐現象を、‌‌人間の心理に深刻な影響を与え、私たちの既存の現実観を揺るがす、物理的かつ超常的な出来事‌‌として捉えています。彼の視点の核心は、エイリアンの本質に対する深い不信感と、人間中心主義的なアプローチにあります。

現象の性質について、ホプキンスの主な視点は以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌エイリアンの本質と行動の欺瞞性‌‌ ホプキンスは、エイリアンが「‌‌非常に欺瞞的で秘密裏に活動する‌‌」存在であると強く主張しています。彼は、エイリアンが「スクリーン・メモリー」と呼ばれるものを使って、実際の姿を隠すために存在しないものを見せたり、体験の記憶を盗んだりする例を挙げています。例えば、体験者が激しい痛みと恐怖を感じているときに、エイリアンが額に手を置くことで、痛みや怒りが消え失せ、深い愛情を感じさせる操作を行うことがあります。しかし、エイリアンが手を離すと、痛みと怒りは再び戻ります。ホプキンスは、このような操作を「エイリアンの活動手段の一部」と見なし、「‌‌エイリアンの言うことはいかなる状況下でも信頼できない‌‌」と結論付けています。彼の初期の著作では、エイリアンを「どこから来たか分からない冷たい生物で、私たちの真実を破壊し、地球を侵害している」と表現しています。

  2. ‌‌体験者への深い心理的・肉体的影響‌‌ ホプキンスは、誘拐体験が個人に「‌‌心理的な傷跡‌‌」を残すと指摘しています。1981年のエリザベス・スレーター博士による心理テストでは、誘拐体験者が「低い自己評価」「身体性、性的側面に対するある種の解離」「他人を信頼することへの多くの問題」という3つの共通する心理的欠陥を持つことが示されました。スレーター博士は、これらの欠陥は「レイプ被害者に起こることと非常に似ている」と述べています。ホプキンス自身も、22年間の調査の中で「‌‌あまりにも多くの痛み、あまりにも多くの損害、あまりにも多くの心理的、さらには身体的損害が人々に与えられている‌‌」のを目の当たりにしており、体験者が「実験室の標本」のように感じていることに同意しています。彼は、エイリアンの意図がどうであれ、この苦痛を看過することはできないと考えています。

  3. ‌‌現象の物理的側面と超常的側面の両立‌‌ ホプキンスは、UFO現象が「‌‌完全に物理的‌‌」と「‌‌完全に超常的‌‌」という正反対の側面を兼ね備えていることを強調しています。飛行物体が木を折ったり、地面に跡を残したり、レーダーに映ったり、写真に撮られたりする「物理的な」証拠がある一方で、テレパシーによるコミュニケーション、見えない飛行物体、人間が壁をすり抜けたり失踪したりするなどの「超常的な」側面も存在します。彼は、科学者にとって最も受け入れがたいのは「物理的であり、同時に完全に超常的である」という考え方であり、既存のパラダイムを拡張する必要があると述べています。

  4. ‌‌変容への支援と人間中心主義の強調‌‌ 誘拐体験は、セラピストやサポートグループ、友人、家族といった「‌‌セーフティネット‌‌」が提供されることで、「‌‌素晴らしい方法で変容する可能性‌‌」があるとホプキンスは見ています。彼の仕事は、体験者が自分を理解し、癒しを得るための「事実上のセラピー」であると述べています。 しかし、彼の視点はエイリアンではなく、‌‌人間の精神と回復力‌‌に強く焦点を当てています。彼は、エイリアンのパラダイムが人類の善悪の感覚とは根本的に異なると考え、私たちは「自分自身と互いに対する責任」を負い、地球の世話も「私たち一人ひとりの責任」であると強調します。エイリアンから得られるものは、「比較対象として彼らを利用し、種としての私たち自身の本質を理解すること」だけだと述べています。ホプキンスは、エイリアンが「‌‌精神的に不自由な存在‌‌」であり、人間が持つ「互いを愛し、感情を持ち、ジョークを言い、愛し合い、子供たちを気遣い、地球を気遣う」といった最も素晴らしい特質を吸収しようとしているように見えると考えています。彼は「‌‌エイリアンには全く興味がない‌‌」と明言し、むしろ人間が「人間であることの特別さ」を再認識し、自らの内にあるリソースと他の人間から得られるものを重視すべきだと主張しています。

  5. ‌‌ジョン・マックとの相違点‌‌ ホプキンスとジョン・マック博士は、同じ「生のデータ」を扱っているにもかかわらず、「‌‌解釈、経験に与える見方‌‌」が異なります。マックがエイリアンとの関係性や現象のスピリチュアルな側面により肯定的であるのに対し、ホプキンスはエイリアンとの関係を「‌‌冷たく異質なもの‌‌」と見なしています。ホプキンスは、誘拐現象がもたらす「あまりにも多くの痛み」のために、この現象を楽観視できないと繰り返し述べています。彼は、体験者が「できる限りエイリアンのことを忘れ、普通の生活を送る」ことに集中すべきだと考えており、人間の精神が中心であり、外部の謎めいた存在に依存すべきではないという「‌‌人間中心主義‌‌」的な立場を取っています。ある体験者は、マックからは「興奮と高揚感」を、ホプキンスからは「安定と地に足がついた感覚」を得ると表現しています。

  6. ‌‌エイリアンの動機と調査方法‌‌ エイリアンの動機については、人間を「実験室の標本」のように扱う「科学的探査」や「繁殖のための遠征」といった見方に同意しています。さらに、エイリアンが「‌‌人間の感情、内面生活、感情生活に並外れた好奇心‌‌」を持っている点も指摘しています。彼らは地球の荒廃の画像を見せることで、損傷した惑星に対する人間の反応を見たいのかもしれないと考えています。 調査手法に関しては、体験者の報告に加え、身体的証拠を重視しています。催眠回帰療法を使用する際には、被験者が「誘導されやすいかどうか」をテストするために「何十ものテスト質問を組み込む」など、その信頼性を検証する工夫を行っています。

結論として、バッド・ホプキンスの視点は、エイリアンを「冷たく欺瞞的な存在」と見なし、その行動が体験者に深刻な心理的・肉体的苦痛をもたらすことを強く認識しています。彼は、この現象が私たちの既成概念を打ち破るものであることを認めつつも、エイリアンからの「メッセージ」を盲信せず、人間自身の内なる力と、互いに支え合うことの重要性を強調する、‌‌徹底した人間中心主義的‌‌な立場を取っています。

チャネリングに対する両者の見解​

AI

調査方法と課題のより大きな文脈において、チャネリングへの見解は、ジョン・マック博士とバッド・ホプキンスの双方から慎重かつ批判的な視点で語られています。

バッド・ホプキンスの見解​

バッド・ホプキンスは、チャネリングの信頼性について懐疑的な姿勢を示しています。彼は、チャネリングを開始した女性の事例を挙げています。その女性は異星人のような奇妙な声で話し始めたため、ホプキンスは「オーウェノコ湖のUFO基地」という架空の場所について尋ねたところ、女性はそれについて詳細な説明をしました。この経験から、ホプキンスはチャネリングされる情報の信憑性に疑問を呈し、「‌‌チャネラーは皆、『他のチャネラーの言うことを聞くな。私が真実を知っている』と言う‌‌」と指摘しています。彼はこの状況を「チャネリングに対して公平ではない」と述べており、情報の検証が困難であることを示唆しています。

ジョン・マック博士の見解​

ジョン・マック博士もまた、チャネリングの使用には慎重です。彼は「‌‌もう十分に苦労しているので、チャネリングは使わない‌‌」と述べています。しかし、彼はチャネリングから得られる情報をどのように利用し、批判的に評価するかを決定する方法が必要だと考えています。マック博士は、チャネリングされた情報の中に、‌‌チャネラーが「地球上の現実からでは知り得なかったはずの情報」が含まれている場合‌‌には興味深いと指摘しています。例えば、その情報が通常の知識では知り得ないものであると証明できれば、それは注目に値します。しかし、マック博士は、人々が通常はそのような検証を行う手間をかけないことを批判しており、その情報の評価方法が確立されていないという課題を強調しています。

調査方法と課題の文脈におけるチャネリング​

これらの見解は、「調査方法と課題」というより大きな文脈において、チャネリングがエイリアン遭遇現象の理解に役立つ可能性を秘めつつも、‌‌深刻な信頼性と検証の課題‌‌を抱えていることを示しています。

  1. ‌‌信頼性の欠如‌‌: ホプキンスの実験（架空の湖底基地に関する質問）は、チャネリングされた情報がいかに簡単に偽の情報を含みうるかを示しており、その信頼性が非常に低いことを浮き彫りにしています。
  2. ‌‌検証の困難さ‌‌: マック博士は、地球上の知識では知り得ない情報という特定の基準を設けていますが、それを検証するための‌‌確立された方法論がない‌‌こと、そして多くの研究者がその検証に十分な労力を払っていないことを指摘しています。エイリアンの知性とのコミュニケーションに関する情報源としてチャネリングを真剣に検討するならば、この検証方法の開発が重要な課題となります。
  3. ‌‌情報の質の評価‌‌: 「他の、もしそれが他者でないとしても、知性」からの情報をどのように評価するかという根本的な問題が存在し、これを解決する手段が現在のところ見当たらないとマック博士は考えています。

したがって、両者ともチャネリングを現象理解のための主要な調査方法として採用することには消極的であり、その情報の信憑性と検証可能性に大きな課題があると考えていることが分かります。特に、ホプキンスはエイリアンの欺瞞性を強調する自身の視点とチャネリングの曖昧な性質を結びつけているのに対し、マック博士は、検証可能な条件が満たされれば、地球外の知識源としてその可能性を完全に排除するわけではないものの、現状ではその情報の評価が非常に難しいという現実的な課題に焦点を当てています。のに対し、マック博士は、検証可能な条件が満たされれば、地球外の知識源としてその可能性を完全に排除するわけではないものの、現状ではその情報の評価が非常に難しいという現実的な課題に焦点を当てています。

ET の動機と行動 : John Mack の推測​

AI

ジョン・マック博士は、異星人の動機と行動について、バッド・ホプキンスとは異なる、より多角的で変容的な視点から推測を述べています。彼はこの現象を、当初の疑念から一転して「‌‌自己、私たちが宇宙で何者であるかを理解するための、計り知れない複雑さ、意味、価値を持つ現象‌‌」として捉えるようになりました。

マック博士の推測における異星人の動機と行動の主なポイントは以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌情報伝達と人類の意識変容の試み‌‌: 異星人は、地球の「‌‌惑星が破壊され、広範囲に汚染された光景‌‌」を、テレビのようなモニターや直接的な心と心のコミュニケーションを通じて体験者に見せることがあります。マック博士は、これを単なる欺瞞とは考えていません。むしろ、これは「‌‌現象自体における重要な部分‌‌」であり、「‌‌私たち自身について何かを私たち自身に伝えようとする必死の努力‌‌」だと信じています。この情報の提示は、個人の意識に絶大な影響を与え、その後の人生の選択に深く関わることになります。異星人は、終末的な光景を見せることで、単に私たちの反応を試しているのではなく、私たちの意識を開かせ、何が起こっているのかに気づかせようとしていると推測しています。

  2. ‌‌スピリチュアルな成長と自己のエンパワーメントの促進‌‌: 体験者たちは、自身が「‌‌源（Source）に開かれ、『故郷（Home）』、つまり万物のスピリチュアルな起源に戻っている‌‌」かのような感覚を覚えることが頻繁にあります。マック博士は、多くの体験者が、この体験が「‌‌存在の奥深さや神性‌‌」に近づく根本的な部分であると感じていることに言及しています。ある若い女性が述べたように、異星人が来ることを許す「源の目的」は、「‌‌私たち自身の記憶、源の記憶を取り戻し、私たち自身を力づけること‌‌」なのかもしれないと示唆しています。マック博士自身は、異星人がスピリチュアルな存在だと断言しているわけではありませんが、この現象がしばしば「‌‌何らかのスピリチュアルな成長や拡大‌‌」をもたらすことを強調しています。

  3. ‌‌深い関係性の構築と人間の特性への関心‌‌: バッド・ホプキンスが異星人との関係を「冷たく異質」と捉えるのに対し、マック博士は、恐怖や謎に積極的に向き合うことで、関係性が「‌‌よりスピリチュアルに変容し、成長が起こる‌‌」と述べています。時には「‌‌時空を超えて続く深い、強力な愛情の絆‌‌」が形成されることもあり、これは「地球上で感じられるものよりも何倍も強力」だと表現されることがあります。異星人は、人間の「‌‌身体性、精神性、愛、セクシュアリティ、感覚‌‌」に深く魅了されているとマック博士は同意しており、人間がお互いを愛し、感情を持ち、冗談を言い、愛し合い、子供たちや地球を大切にするという、人間の最も素晴らしい特性に関心を持っていると推測しています。

  4. ‌‌人類中心主義的な宇宙観への挑戦‌‌: マック博士は、異星人の行動が、宇宙における人類の立ち位置に関して「‌‌非常に広範な意味‌‌」を持つと考えています。彼は、宇宙で唯一の優れた知性であるという「‌‌傲慢さを打ち砕く‌‌」ものは、概して良いことだと捉えています。この現象は、私たちの「‌‌宇宙的エゴイズム‌‌」に疑問を投げかけ、現在の快適な地球環境を超えた「‌‌広大な他の現実の領域‌‌」へと私たちを開放する可能性を秘めていると推測しています。彼はこの現象を「‌‌宇宙から精神的に障害のある者へのアウトリーチ・プログラム‌‌」と呼び、私たちの意識の殻を破り、より広大な現実を受け入れることを促していると考えています。

  5. ‌‌トラウマと変容の複合的な側面‌‌: マック博士は、異星人による体験が「深く悩ましく、トラウマ的で、心を乱す」ものであり、自殺を考えるほど深刻な場合があることを否定しません。しかし、同時に、彼が診てきた体験者の多くは、それを乗り越える能力が高く、最小限の助けで統合し、「‌‌生命を与えるプロセスの一部‌‌」だと感じている傾向があると述べています。彼は、体験の質は、それに取り組むことで変化していくと見ています。

マック博士の視点では、異星人の動機は、単なる科学的探査や繁殖といった側面だけでなく、人類の意識の拡大、スピリチュアルな成長の促進、そして人類中心主義的な世界観を打ち破ることを含む、より深く複雑な目的を持っていると推測されます。彼らは、私たち自身と宇宙における私たちの位置について、より高次の理解へと導こうとしているのかもしれません。

ET の動機と行動 : Budd Hopkins の推測​

AI

バッド・ホプキンスは、異星人の動機と行動について、‌‌欺瞞的で、人間を実験対象と見なし、心理的・肉体的な苦痛を与える存在‌‌であるという、より懐疑的かつ人間中心主義的な推測をしています。彼は、ジョン・マック博士が示唆するようなポジティブな変容やスピリチュアルな側面とは一線を画し、異星人の行動に根本的な不信感を抱いています。

ホプキンスの推測における異星人の動機と行動の主なポイントは以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌徹底した欺瞞性‌‌: ホプキンスは、異星人が「‌‌非常に欺瞞的で秘密裏に活動する‌‌」存在であると強く主張しています。彼らは「スクリーン・メモリー」と呼ばれるものを使って、体験者に実際には存在しないものを見せ、真の姿を隠します。また、体験の記憶を「盗む」ことで、欺瞞行為を行います。具体例として、エイリアンが額に手を置くことで体験者の痛みや怒りを消し、深い愛情を感じさせる操作を行う事例を挙げており、これを「‌‌エイリアンの活動手段の一部‌‌」と見なしています。この種の操作は「‌‌エイリアンが言うことはいかなる状況下でも信頼できない‌‌」という結論に繋がっています。

  2. ‌‌科学的探査と繁殖の目的‌‌: ホプキンスは、異星人の動機が人間を「‌‌実験室の標本‌‌」のように扱う「科学的探査」であるという見解に同意しています。体験者は「誰かの進行中の実験における非自発的な標本」のように感じていると述べています。また、「‌‌繁殖のための遠征‌‌」という側面も指摘しており、異星人が人間のDNAに関心を持っているという報告が世界中から寄せられていることにも言及しています。

  3. ‌‌人間の感情と内面生活への好奇心‌‌: ホプキンスは、異星人が「‌‌人間の感情、私たちの内面生活、彼ら自身は持っていないと思われる感情生活に並外れた好奇心‌‌」を持っていると推測しています。彼らは、地球の破壊や広範囲な汚染の画像を見せることで、単に未来を予測するのではなく、‌‌「損傷した惑星」に対する人間の反応を観察し、私たちの「人間同士の関わり方」に強い関心がある‌‌と考えています。彼らは「私たちの水を供給したり、核兵器に興味があるわけではない」とし、むしろ「‌‌私たちを特に人間らしくしている事柄‌‌」に興味があるように見えると述べています。

  4. ‌‌体験者への深刻な心理的・身体的ダメージ‌‌: ホプキンスは、誘拐体験が個人に「‌‌心理的な傷跡‌‌」を残すことを強調しています。エリザベス・スレーター博士による心理テストでは、誘拐体験者が「低い自己評価」「身体性、性的側面に対するある種の解離」「他人を信頼することへの多くの問題」という3つの共通する心理的欠陥を持つことが示され、これは「‌‌レイプ被害者に起こることと非常に似ている‌‌」と指摘されています。ホプキンス自身も22年間の調査の中で、「‌‌あまりにも多くの痛み、あまりにも多くの損害、あまりにも多くの心理的、さらには身体的損害が人々に与えられている‌‌」のを見てきたため、この現象を楽観視することはできないと繰り返し述べています。彼は、異星人の意図がどうであれ、この苦痛を看過することはできません。

  5. ‌‌異星人への不信と人間中心主義の強調‌‌: ジョン・マック博士が異星人との関係性の変容やスピリチュアルな側面を指摘するのに対し、ホプキンスは異星人との関係を「‌‌冷たく異質なもの‌‌」と見なしています。彼は異星人を「‌‌精神的に不自由な存在‌‌」であり、人間が持つ「互いを愛し、感情を持ち、ジョークを言い、愛し合い、子供たちを気遣い、地球を気遣う」といった最も素晴らしい特性を「‌‌吸収しようとしている‌‌」ように見えると推測しています。 ホプキンスの最も根源的な立場は「‌‌エイリアンには全く興味がない‌‌」というものであり、むしろ人間の精神と回復力に焦点を当てています。彼は、エイリアンが「‌‌偉大な救済の力‌‌」ではなく、「異なる原則を持つ存在」に過ぎないと考えており、私たちは「‌‌自分自身と互いに対する責任‌‌」を負い、外部の神秘的でとらえどころのない存在に依存すべきではないと強調しています。彼の究極の目標は、体験者が「できる限りエイリアンのことを忘れ、普通の生活を送る」ことで、人間の精神が中心であり、その豊かさを再認識することにあります。

John Mack の提言​

AI

ジョン・マック博士のメッセージは、異星人遭遇現象が私たちの現実観、自己認識、そして宇宙における人類の立ち位置を根本から問い直し、拡大させる可能性を秘めた、複雑で多層的な現象であるという結論と提言に集約されます。彼は、既存の科学的枠組みや信仰体系に固執するのではなく、未知の現実を受け入れ、新たな知識の道を拓くことの重要性を訴えています。

マック博士の主要なメッセージは以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌現実の概念の拡張と未解明な領域への開放‌‌: マック博士は、この現象が私たちの既存のカテゴリーに全く当てはまらず、場所を特定できないものであると強調しています。それは「‌‌物理的であると同時に、あたかも別の次元にいるかのよう‌‌」であり、私たちの認識の枠組みを超えています。彼は、この現象が私たちの「‌‌現実の概念を拡張すること‌‌」を求めていると述べています。具体的には、「目に見えない現実を、おそらくはより深い現実として、また単なる客観的な物理世界ではない別の現実として含めるよう、現実の概念を拡張すること」が不可欠だと考えています。彼は、私たちが「思考の枠組みの制約を通して作り出した殻」を打ち破り、「‌‌広大な他の現実の領域‌‌」へと意識を開くことの必要性を提唱しています。これは、UFO現象を「‌‌宇宙から精神的に障害のある者へのアウトリーチ・プログラム‌‌」と呼び、意識の覚醒を促すものと捉えていることからも明らかです。

  2. ‌‌知識の獲得方法の多様性への信頼と新しいパラダイムの必要性‌‌: マック博士は、この現象が従来の「証明の枠組み」では解明されないと考えています。彼は、物理的な証拠だけでは「決定的な証拠」にはならず、「‌‌現実に関する他の認識方法を信頼し、受け入れることによって‌‌」私たちの理解が深まり、自己が拡大すると述べています。彼は、臨死体験や体外離脱体験と同様に、この現象が私たちに「‌‌微細な領域から得られる知識を尊重する‌‌」よう促していると主張しています。メキシコの心理学者の「測定できないものは存在しない」という見解に対し、マック博士は、多くの人が同じ体験をしていることなどを通じて、経験の信憑性を判断する基準を開発することの重要性を提起しています。

  3. ‌‌人類中心主義の克服と宇宙における自己認識の再構築‌‌: マック博士は、バッド・ホプキンスよりも「保護的で人類中心主義的ではない」と感じています。彼は、この現象が宇宙で唯一の優れた知性であるという「‌‌傲慢さを打ち砕く‌‌」ものであり、これは「概して良いこと」だと捉えています。彼はこの現象が、私たちの「‌‌宇宙的エゴイズム‌‌」に疑問を投げかけ、現在の快適な地球環境を超えた「‌‌広大な他の現実の領域‌‌」へと私たちを開放する可能性を秘めていると結論付けています。この視点は、私たちが宇宙における自分たちの存在に関して「非常に広範な意味を持つ」現象に直面していることを示唆しています。

  4. ‌‌現象の多面性と変容の可能性への着目‌‌: マック博士は、この現象が「出来事レベルの側面」（トラウマ的な部分）、「情報レベルの側面」（生態学的メッセージ）、「スピリチュアルな側面」（源への回帰）という複数の重要な要素から構成されていると見ています。彼は、異星人が地球の破壊や汚染の光景を見せるのは、単なる欺瞞ではなく「‌‌私たち自身について何かを私たち自身に伝えようとする必死の努力‌‌」だと信じています。また、体験は深く悩ましく、トラウマ的である一方で、多くの体験者はそれを「‌‌生命を与えるプロセスの一部‌‌」だと感じ、乗り越える能力が高いと述べています。彼が「精神科医であるにもかかわらず、より変容を求める人々を見ている」と自己言及しているように、恐怖や謎に取り組むことで、体験の質や異星人との関係性が「‌‌よりスピリチュアルに変容し、成長が起こる‌‌」可能性があることを強調しています。

  5. ‌‌最終的な提言：好奇心の深化と現状の受け入れ‌‌: マック博士の結論と提言の根底にあるのは、「‌‌好奇心を抱き、疑問を深めること‌‌」です。彼は、この現象が「‌‌自己、私たちが宇宙で何者であるかを理解するための、計り知れない複雑さ、意味、価値を持つ現象‌‌」であると強調しており、「今夜、ここに答えはない。ただ疑問を深めるだけだ」と述べています。彼は、世俗的で合理主義的な背景を持つ自身が、体験者たちから現象のスピリチュアルな側面を学んだ経験を語り、固定観念にとらわれず、開かれた心で未知の現実と向き合うことの重要性を強く示唆しています。

これらの点から、ジョン・マック博士のメッセージは、UFO/エイリアン遭遇現象を単なる外部からの脅威や科学的謎として捉えるのではなく、人類の意識と現実観の変容を促す、より深い宇宙的・存在論的な意味を持つ出来事として、私たちが受け入れ、探求していくべきだというものです。

Budd Hopkins の提言​

AI

バッド・ホプキンスの「結論と提言」におけるメッセージは、エイリアンによる遭遇現象を、‌‌欺瞞的で、人間を実験対象と見なし、深い心理的・肉体的苦痛をもたらす存在‌‌として捉え、それに対して‌‌人間が自らの内なる力と責任を再認識し、回復すること‌‌を強く提唱するものです。彼は、ジョン・マック博士が示すような現象の変容性やスピリチュアルな側面とは一線を画し、徹底した人間中心主義の立場を取っています。

ホプキンスの主要なメッセージは以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌エイリアンの本質に対する根本的な不信と欺瞞性の強調‌‌: ホプキンスは、エイリアンが「‌‌非常に欺瞞的で秘密裏に活動する‌‌」存在であると断言しています。彼らは「スクリーン・メモリー」を用いて、実際の姿を隠したり、体験の記憶を盗んだりします。また、体験者が激しい痛みと恐怖を感じているときに、エイリアンが額に手を置くことで、痛みや怒りを消し去り、深い愛情を感じさせる操作を行う事例を挙げ、「‌‌エイリアンが言うことはいかなる状況下でも信頼できない‌‌」と結論付けています。この欺瞞的な性質は、エイリアンの活動手段の根幹をなすものと彼は見ています。

  2. ‌‌誘拐体験がもたらす深刻な心理的・肉体的ダメージ‌‌: ホプキンスは、誘拐体験が個人に「‌‌心理的な傷跡‌‌」を残すことを強く指摘しています。エリザベス・スレーター博士による心理テストでは、誘拐体験者に「低い自己評価」「身体性、性的側面に対するある種の解離」「他人を信頼することへの多くの問題」という3つの共通する心理的欠陥が見られ、これは「‌‌レイプ被害者に起こることと非常に似ている‌‌」と述べています。彼自身も22年間の調査の中で「‌‌あまりにも多くの痛み、あまりにも多くの損害、あまりにも多くの心理的、さらには身体的損害が人々に与えられている‌‌」のを目の当たりにしており、エイリアンの意図がどうであれ、この苦痛を看過できないため、現象を楽観視することはできないと繰り返し述べています。

  3. ‌‌徹底した人間中心主義の提唱と回復への道筋‌‌: ホプキンスのメッセージの核心は、エイリアンに依存せず、‌‌人間の精神と回復力に焦点を当てる‌‌ことです。彼は、体験者が「素晴らしい方法で変容する可能性」を認めつつも、それは「セラピストやサポートグループ、友人、家族」といった「‌‌セーフティネット‌‌」が提供される場合に限られると強調しています。彼の仕事は、体験者が自分を理解し、癒しを得るための「事実上のセラピー」であると述べています。 彼は、人類には「‌‌深くスピリチュアルなヒューマニズム‌‌」という「生来の人間性」があり、それが「互いへの、子供たちへの、惑星への思いやり、共感、愛、責任感の基礎」であると強調します。エイリアンのパラダイムは私たちのものとは「根本的に異なる」ため、彼らの善悪の感覚は私たちには適用されず、彼らは「‌‌偉大な救済の力‌‌」ではなく、「異なる原則を持つ存在」に過ぎないと考えています。 したがって、私たちは「‌‌自分自身と互いに対する責任を負うべき‌‌」であり、エイリアンから得られるものは「‌‌比較対象として彼らを利用し、種としての私たち自身の本質を理解すること‌‌」だけだと結論付けています。ホプキンスは「‌‌エイリアンには全く興味がない‌‌」と明言し、むしろ人間が「‌‌人間であることの特別さ‌‌」を再認識し、自らの内にあるリソースと他の人間から得られるものを重視すべきだと主張しています。彼の究極のメッセージは、体験者が「‌‌できる限りエイリアンのことを忘れ、普通の生活を送る‌‌」ことに集中すべきであり、人間の精神が中心であり、外部の謎めいた存在に依存すべきではないというものです。

  4. ‌‌ジョン・マック博士との明確な対比‌‌: ホプキンスは、彼とマック博士が同じ「生のデータ」を扱っているにもかかわらず、「‌‌解釈、経験に与える見方‌‌」が異なると述べています。マック博士がエイリアンへのより大きな好奇心や現象のスピリチュアルな側面を促すのに対し、ホプキンスは「‌‌最高の復讐として、うまく生きる‌‌」ことを強調し、人々が「‌‌自分の人生の豊かさ、自分の資源、自分の内なる強さに目を向け‌‌」ることを促しています。彼は、エイリアンとの関係性を「‌‌冷たく異質なもの‌‌」と見なし、エイリアンを「‌‌精神的に不自由な存在‌‌」であり、人間が持つ素晴らしい特性を「吸収しようとしている」と推測しています。ある体験者が、ホプキンスからは「安定と地に足がついた感覚」を、マックからは「興奮と高揚感」を得ると表現していることからも、この立場の違いが明確に示されています。

最終的に、バッド・ホプキンスのメッセージは、UFOやエイリアン遭遇現象が人類にもたらす苦痛を深く認識し、その苦痛の原因であるエイリアンの本質に不信感を抱きつつも、人間自身の内なる回復力、倫理観、そして相互扶助の精神にこそ、この困難な現象を乗り越える鍵があると提言しています。彼は、外部の存在に解答を求めるのではなく、‌‌人間が人間として生きることの価値と責任‌‌を強調する、実存的かつ実践的なメッセージを発しています。

情報源​

動画(1:42:32)

Jacques Vallee, Terrence McKenna, John Mack, Budd Hopkins on

文字起こし（話者識別）​

展開

（以下は John Mack Ph.D. と Budd Hopkins の講演とその後の対談の文字起こしです。）

[Chris] : John Mack, the author of Abduction. Dr. John Mack. (00:46:00)

[John Mack] : I want to thank Chris for taking this on and being willing to show up here in Boston with a couple of disreputable characters like Bud and me, and shows his courage and pioneering spirit. I also want to express my appreciation to Bud for, I don't know if I really feel this way actually, I'm not so sure I am appreciative that he introduced me to this field. I mean it's been a lot of trouble actually. But I have deep fondness and admiration for his pioneering role and spirit in this. (00:46:38)

[John Mack] : What I'd like to see happen here tonight is that we really deepen some questions. I happen to be very interested in the reality question, or the ontological question as it's formally called in philosophy, and I hope to arouse and deepen your curiosity about all of this. Now what happened to me with Bud is that somebody asked if I wanted to meet him. This was the fall of 1989 and I'd never heard of him. And they said, well he's this guy that works with people who think they've been taken by aliens into spacecraft. (00:47:09)

[John Mack] : And I said, he must be crazy if he believes that and this must be some new form of psychosis. Well, I had a couple of free hours and I went to see him and I liked him. He seemed sincere, he didn't seem crazy at all. And he was telling me about people who were telling stories that they didn't believe themselves, that they were questioning, they sounded like pretty healthy people, which I've seen now, now worked intensively with about 130 of these people, is that the stories are consistent, they are described with intense feeling, appropriate self-doubt, they are shocked when they hear other people have had the same experiences, because that tends to affirm that it's real, they have nothing to gain by this, and they don't seem to fall into any category whatsoever. (00:47:56)

[John Mack] : And as I've gone more deeply into this, this has held up. Now the fact that what they are describing isn't possible in our reality is not my fault. You then have a choice of trying to stretch what you might consider to be possible at that point. First you have the event-level element. Now I say, I believe overall this is a phenomenon of enormous complexity, meaning, and value for understanding of ourselves, who we are in the universe, and we're just beginning to grasp what this is about. So there aren't going to be answers here tonight, just deepening questions. (00:48:32)

[John Mack] : First is the event-level aspect. This is the sort of traumatic part, this mixture of subjective and objective elements that have to do with the intrusive, rape-like aspect for some people. The physical evidence is there, it's part of the picture, and it works together with the subjective evidence to create this picture. The trauma is not just what has happened, it's also what I call ontological shock. In other words, to the person having that experience, this is no more possible for them than it is for us. (00:49:01)

[John Mack] : So we struggle together with that question. The second important element, in my perspective, is the information that occurs, and a great deal of this does have to do with the ecological aspect. In other words, the showing of the images, panorama of the planet destroyed, vast pollution, the earth destroyed on television-like monitors, through the eyes, in voice, mind-to-mind communication by the beings. And this has an enormous impact on the consciousness of the individuals, so much so that it affects deeply their choices in their lives. And I do believe this is not just deception, but I believe it's an important part of the phenomenon itself, and I see this in case after case. (00:49:48)

[John Mack] : Next you have what I call the spiritual aspect of this phenomenon. This is the sense that people have that they're somehow being open to Source, returning to what they call Home, with a capital H, the spiritual origin of all that is. And they feel that they are brought closer to that, and many experiencers feel that that's a fundamental part of this experience, that they're brought closer to the depth of being the Godhead, whatever you want to call it, there's different language for this. There's one young woman's way of describing this. (00:50:27)

[John Mack] : She said, I think Source's purpose for letting that happen, that is allowing the aliens to come, is to bring back memory of us, of Source, to empower ourselves. I think it's almost like a baby going from crawling to walking and realizing that I am. That's what I think Source's reason for this, I am. And a fourth element, which is, again, something where I think Bud and I differ, is the relationship between the... and there is not one type of alien perceived. The most common are these greys with the big black eyes, which I never heard of when I started this work, but there are also various other kinds of beings. (00:51:06)

[John Mack] : And Bud sees the relationship as cold and different. In his autobiography, which he's sharing with me, he wrote at the very first page, he said, the mystery of those cold creatures who have come here from God knows where, subverting our truths and violating our planet. Well, there is that element in the beginning, but in my experience, if you work with the terror with the person, you work with the mystery, you have them sort of put the nose of the prow of the self into the phenomenon, that it does transform, that it does become more spiritual, that growth does occur. (00:51:43)

[John Mack] : And sometimes there can be this, not just this sort of transient sense of loving connection that is manipulated, but some deepening bond that lasts throughout this relationship across these dimensions, and that this is a very deep, powerful phenomenon. Why is there so much resistance to accepting, or at least realizing what's going on? And I think at the heart of this, even more fundamental than the terror of the helplessness, the lack of control, we know that it represents that, and people are afraid that they can't protect their children, and that this is a kind of intrusive, overwhelming kind of phenomenon. But I think even deeper than that is this ontological problem, in that this absolutely defies our categories. (00:52:35)

[John Mack] : In other words, if our worldview is one that can master knowledge through experiment, through the methods of basic science, this doesn't fall into a category that allows us to do that. It crosses over. You can't locate it. It is both physical and it is as if in another dimension at the same time. We can't get at it. The clients, although they'll make it clear, this is not a dream. It's real. (00:53:08)

[John Mack] : It's altogether real. I know a dream. I wake up from a dream. This is different. I have knowledge of this. But they'll say, but it's not this reality. It comes through as if through the scrim of a theater front and enters into our reality, and it is in that reality altogether real, and it introduces them to a deeper fabric of reality that lies beyond this one. It seems to me at the heart of what is called for now is that we allow this phenomenon to, through the questions we ask, to expand our notions of reality, to include unseen realities as perhaps even a deeper reality, but an other reality, not simply the objective physical world, and that we learn to value knowledge that comes from those realms. (00:54:00)

[John Mack] : A psychologist in Mexico recently said to me, and he was only half joking, he says, if I can't measure it, it doesn't exist. And he was quite serious about that. But what this phenomenon, I think, along with many others, like the near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences does, is it invites us to value knowledge that comes from the subtle realms. In other words, it asks us to credit our experiences, to develop criteria for how do we judge whether an experience can be taken seriously. Is it because thousands of people are having the same experience? (00:54:37)

[John Mack] : Well, you could say we're all having the same delusion. Well, how do we decide? I think these people haven't known each other. They're doubtful about these experiences. I have certain criteria by which I decide these experiences are to be taken seriously. It goes along with the physical evidence. It's that combination. But we don't have a methodology yet. And I think I'd like to close with the point that I don't think that this phenomenon is going to be proven. In other words, I think that the deepening of our understanding and knowledge, the expansion of ourselves in relation to it and other similar phenomena, is going to occur by crediting and allowing other ways of knowing about reality. (00:55:17)

[John Mack] : In other words, expanding the way we know and what we credit as important. I don't think it's going to yield its secrets to the frameworks of proof that we have developed to apply to phenomena that are purely in the material world. Thanks. (00:55:32)

[Chris] : Thank you. Bud Hopkins, as you probably all know, is the author, maybe most famously, of Intruders. It's a book. It's also a general theory of what's going on here. Bud Hopkins. (00:55:55)

[Budd Hopkins] : I am very pleased to be here and flattered to be here. And I would like to express my appreciation to John and to his associates and to Karen and those who planned this. I would just like to also say something about my respect for John Mack, for his courage, for the difficulties that he's undergone in bringing a very unconventional subject to the attention of a university that perhaps is overly frightened by something as new and dramatic as this. But I think any human being in this room would have to admit that if the UFO phenomenon is occurring, as the report suggests, it's the most important event in human history. (00:56:48)

[Budd Hopkins] : And if that's the case, I don't think any institution or organization is being very wise to oppose the investigation, the serious investigation of such a phenomenon. In order to discuss this intelligently, we must know that the data we're relying on is reliable data. It's solid. The data, of course, comes mainly from the reports of the people who have had these experiences, plus a whole range of attendant physical evidence, which I don't want to go into at this point. Now, what do we know about the UFO experience in terms of the reliability of what the aliens say? (00:57:28)

[Budd Hopkins] : And I use the word aliens for one of a better term. The first thing is that the aliens are extraordinarily deceptive and operate in a covert manner. There was no doubt about that. There is no possible way that anyone who's looked into this phenomenon can say anything to the contrary of that, simply because we have a whole history of what we have to call screen memories, when the UFO occupants make us see things that are not there in order to hide the way they actually appear. The way the memory of the experience very, very often has been stolen from us, which is not only an act of theft, it's an act of deception, and it can't possibly really be defended, so far as I'm concerned. (00:58:08)

[Budd Hopkins] : Now, there are all kinds of wonderful stories to illustrate this sort of control that they can have over our perceptions. I was working with a woman once who was recalling an experience. She's on the table inside a ship. There's a physical examination taking place. It's extremely painful, demeaning, and so forth, and she is not only enraged and furious, but she's scared to death and she's undergoing pain. And the head alien, as we know from these accounts, often happens, walks over, puts his hand across her forehead, and she said the pain disappeared. (00:58:42)

[Budd Hopkins] : She felt waves of the most profound love she has ever felt in her life. She said she would sacrifice her own children for the love that she felt for this being. It was just beyond anything she had ever known. No pain, no anger, and total love. He walked away from her, took his hand away, of course. The pain came back. She began to get angry again. She was hurting again. She was furious again. (00:59:05)

[Budd Hopkins] : And he came back and he put his hand on her head, and she would have again sacrificed her children for that love. That kind of manipulation is, of course, something that's part and parcel with the alien means of operating. At any rate, this kind of deception goes on and on. People have been made to feel that they were themselves aliens in an early life, made to see themselves as if they have alien hands and so forth. All kinds of imagery seems to be played into people's heads. (00:59:34)

[Budd Hopkins] : I know this totally sounds crazy. You have to read the background information supporting this. But I'm trying to start with what I assume many of you already know about the phenomenon. So the basic first point here is that we can't trust what the aliens are saying to us under any conditions. As a second major fact, we know what happens to individuals who are reporting abduction experiences psychologically. We know that they are psychologically scarred. (01:00:03)

[Budd Hopkins] : The only set of psychological tests which, so far as I know, were ever done on this matter were done... I was partly involved in this in 1981. In 1981, Dr. Elizabeth Slater, a psychologist, tested a group of abductees or people reporting these experiences. She was not told the nature of the sample she was testing, anything about their UFO experiences, but she found that all of them shared three deficits psychologically. All had low self-esteem, all had a certain dissociation in their attitude towards their bodies, their physicality, their sexuality, and all had a lot of trouble trusting people. (01:00:36)

[Budd Hopkins] : Well, at any rate, she pointed out when we later told her after she wrote a report the nature of the sample that she had tested and what they had experienced, and she said, though this doesn't prove anything, if these people had had the experiences they reported, then these are precisely the kinds of deficits one would imagine would accrue. And she said it's very much like what happens when you get a rape victim. Now, the next thing is, are these experiences, and I'll try to be very brief, are these experiences transformational in any way? (01:01:10)

[Budd Hopkins] : And of course they can be transformational in a wonderful way, provided they meet therapists and a support group and other people who are associates in this field who can lead them through their experiences in such a way that they understand that they're not crazy, that there's no blame to be ascribed to them, and so forth. The therapist, the support group, and friends and family provide the safety net that create that transformational experience. I don't think there's any doubt about it. (01:01:42)

[Budd Hopkins] : We want these people to become much more whole. We want them to feel a sense of healing. It's an extremely delicate and difficult new kind of procedure of therapy that has to be developed, really, at this point. I'm not a therapist myself, unlike John, but I feel that what we do, if we work with these people, is a kind of de facto therapy. (01:02:06)

[Chris] : Will you sum it up by describing the nature of the reality plane that you think that this is real in? (01:02:15)

[Budd Hopkins] : Very good. The nature of the plane is this. The UFO phenomenon runs at a tremendous 180 degree gamut from being totally physical, nuts and bolts. When the thing comes down, it could break the tree branches down from the top, leave marks on the ground. People are floated out of buildings, are scarred, their bodies are marked. The craft can show up on radar, they can be photographed, etc. Totally physical. And, on the other end, totally paranormal. (01:02:44)

[Budd Hopkins] : All the communication is telepathic. The craft can be, apparently, unseeable at some points. We know that people can be floated through walls and they're actually missing. This is not an out-of-body experience, it's an out-of-the-house experience. The hardest thing for scientists to accept is the idea that it is both physical and so totally paranormal. The whole paradigm of what's possible, of course, has to be expanded. The last thing I'd like to do, Chris, if I may, I'd like to read a short statement that a woman wrote, an abductee, about her attitude, she's a psychotherapist, how she has dealt with this kind of transformation. (01:03:24)

[Budd Hopkins] : She said, we of the earth are in possession, due perhaps to our biology, of an innate humanness, which is often translated into a deeply spiritual humanism. It's the basis of our moral sense, of the feelings of caring, empathy, love and responsibility we have for one another, for our children and for the planet. From my experiences with the aliens, I've come to believe that their entire paradigm is radically different from ours, and that our sense of right and wrong, good and bad, does not apply for them. They are very different from us, not only physically, but in their understandings, motives, goals and purposes. (01:03:57)

[Budd Hopkins] : I do not believe that they are the great redeeming power some may wish for, but only beings with a different set of principles. Therefore, we must assume responsibility for ourselves and each other. It places the burden of care for one another and for the planet squarely with each one of us. For what can we gain from them, if not the understanding of our own nature as a species, using them for comparison? My curiosity about them is unbounded, as is my grief, confusion and fear. (01:04:26)

[Budd Hopkins] : But what I have found, what I return to each day, be it coping mechanism or epiphany, is that I want to immerse myself in my humanity, in my humanism, in my caring for other humans, for life on our planet and for the earth itself. And this statement of hers is a statement which I absolutely, 100% endorse. Thank you very much. Thank you. (01:04:50)

[Chris] : Are there differences to probe here? Are there things you want to ask about each other's presentations? (01:05:00)

[Budd Hopkins] : I had a question, John, when you talked about when you work with people and it takes on a deeper, more spiritual level. The model that presents itself to me is that we know these experiences happen from childhood on. Let's assume a giant pyramid of individuals. Let's assume at the bottom of this pyramid are all the people who either die along the way or have terrible psychological problems, become substance abusers or whatever it is. Up a little further are people who have had more understanding. (01:05:34)

[Budd Hopkins] : Counselors, parents, whatever, have been listening to them. Perhaps they were stronger and perhaps they're handling these things a little better with fewer psychological problems. You go higher in the pyramid and you find a few people who are lucky and they have run into a John Mack or David Jacobs or many of the people doing this kind of work and have been helped by them and met a support group and they're doing much better. And finally, at that top, we find a group, a small group, that has managed to somehow transform themselves with all of that support. (01:06:07)

[Budd Hopkins] : And in a certain sense, at the top of that apex of the triangle are those lucky few who have survived intact, more or less. And down at the bottom are the vast majority who are having a lot of trouble with this. I can't look at that myself and get granted any kind of moral approval. I find that extraordinarily upsetting. And if this is what the alien phenomenon is putting human beings through, I don't want any part of it. My feeling has always been that they may be here ultimately for good purposes or be ecologically concerned or whatnot. (01:06:41)

[Budd Hopkins] : They're doctors to heal the planet, but I don't like the bedside manner in the meantime. And so that's why I find it very difficult to look at that in any kind of way. I've seen over the 22 years I've been doing this, I've seen far too much pain, far too much damage, far too much psychological, even physical damage done to people. And I don't think that this is deliberate. I don't think the UFO occupants are intending it. (01:07:08)

[Budd Hopkins] : But I've just seen too much pain to indulge it with the idea that somehow it's going to all turn out okay. That's my basic issue. (01:07:17)

[John Mack] : I guess I'd like to try to take the discussion out of the question of whether this is benign or malevolent. I don't really see it that way. And I don't, for a moment, deny that people have had deeply troubling, traumatic, disturbing experiences and in rare occasions have contemplated suicide. There's an irony here in a way, Bud, because I'm supposed to be the psychiatrist here, right? I'm supposed to see the really troubled, disturbed people. (01:08:01)

[John Mack] : And it almost seems as if you're seeing the worst cases from the mental health standpoint. And I'm seeing the more seeking ones, which may have to do with who we are and how we work and what goes on. So I don't want to give the impression that I think this is, as sometimes I'm quoted as saying, this is all sort of good and it's enlightened and it's all going to turn out for the better and it's simply godlike. No. This is highly traumatic for many people. (01:08:39)

[John Mack] : It is deeply disturbing. First of all, it's traumatic in simply the helplessness being taken against their will. It's traumatic because this is still not acceptable in this culture. So people are isolated. They can't talk about it. They don't get sympathy like they would for more generally considered forms of abuse. Alien abuse is not something that you can go talking about even with your parents and colleagues, although this may be changing some. Then it is ontologically traumatic. (01:09:07)

[John Mack] : This just can't be. It shocks everything people believe about the world. And then finally, it isn't over when it's over. It can recur at any time. Or parents are troubled that they can't protect their children. All that is true. But at the same time, I don't find that the people that have these experiences, they tend to be way over on the healthy end of the spectrum of people that I've seen. I mean it in terms of their ability to handle it, the fact that a little goes a long way, that they seem to be able to integrate it with a minimum of help, that they often will feel themselves part of some life-giving process. (01:09:48)

[John Mack] : It's not simply traumatic. And that if they stay with it, the whole quality of the experience changes. The quality of the relationship with the beings, again in quotes, changes. So, again, I don't want to leave the impression that I don't know the suffering that goes on, but something else occurs as you work with it. (01:10:11)

[Chris] : Can I ask you both a question, starting with Bud? But you started by saying that if the UFOs are real, this is the most important event in the history of the species. Big if, but it's a plausible conclusion. However, I find it somewhat... you've got the telescope pointed in the wrong direction here. You talk about wanting to help heal the people who received the message. That seems to me utterly illogical in terms of your premise that this is the most... if it's the most important event in human history, if we're getting a message from someplace else about the fundamental nature of reality, I mean to be blunt about it, who cares that it hurt a few people on the way? (01:10:51)

[Chris] : What about the message? What is the message? How do we know it's true? What's the story here? If they're real, and this is the most important news of human history, what the hell is the news? (01:11:05)

[Budd Hopkins] : Well, of course, the reason we do investigations is to find the answer to those questions. We're in the middle of an investigation. I'll be the last person to sit here and say we know the answers to those questions. What is going to happen? We don't know what the end term is, so I'm urging an investigation into it. It's kind of amusing, as John probably knows, that there have been several different people who we've both been seeing. And one young man said to me, he said, it's funny, bud, I come to New York to see you when I need to feel stable and grounded, and I go to see John when I need to feel excited and uplifted. (01:11:42)

[Budd Hopkins] : We could just end the evening right there. I think that's funny, considering that I'm the artist and he's the psychiatrist. I think there's a mix-up here. But the point is, obviously, I work with people in terms of a certain attitude of triage. Whoever's bleeding the worst gets seen first by me. As you work with them and as they come to see this and so forth, then the spiritual interpretation comes in, then they feel better about it, but that, again, is due to John's intervention. What you have to ask yourself is, if these people have been dealing with the aliens on their own for 25 or 35 years or whatever, and they're devastated, and there's a final, ultimately very good outcome, then I think John should get the credit, not the aliens. (01:12:30)

[John Mack] : Well, there's something a little weird going on here, because I come from a very secular, rationalist background. People say, well, this is John's religious, spiritual viewpoint, or seeking, or whatever. That's not how I saw myself growing up. My father was an English professor, very academic. The whole notion of God was rather treated as, we know better than that. We read the Bible in the household purely as literature, not as a spiritual document. Now, you could say, well, I had this sort of hidden hunger for spirituality, so that it emerges. (01:13:14)

[John Mack] : But I was very slow to see this phenomenon in those terms. My sense is, I learned this from the people, not that I brought that to them. (01:13:25)

[Chris] : Your whole sense, as you said, was that this is the kind of information that defies our basic categories that we think in, and certainly you in the medical scientific world. I've got to say, I'm struck that this is extremely familiar in terms of the categories that most of us live in. You say it's counterintuitive, but the images of aliens that people report to you are very familiar stuff on television, in popular movies. What if these things aren't really counterintuitive or countercultural at all, but they're basically the oldest myths of humanity, just reappearing in fresh form? (01:14:10)

[Budd Hopkins] : Well, there are a thousand reasons why that's not the case. And it has to do with the fact that UFOs were studied first by the Air Force as a Nazi secret weapon during World War II. Nobody thought they were godly. Well, that doesn't make them out of space. That makes them out of Germany. No, that made them physical. So we start with the idea that there are physical things flying around that accompany planes. And then we find that they can be photographed, they turn up on radar, and no one knows what they are. (01:14:39)

[Budd Hopkins] : There's no religious belief attached to them. There's nothing of myth attached to them. These things leave marks on the ground when they land. They have a total physicality. You talked about the image of the aliens being familiar. Why? And that's because those images were presented very strongly and clearly in the film Close Encounters, the Steven Spielberg movie, because his special effects people went to Alan Hynek and the Center for UFO Studies to get an account of what these things actually look like. And we get the same drawings from people in countries where people are totally illiterate and so forth. (01:15:11)

[Chris] : John, would you take a crack at the whole question of whether this indeed is counterintuitive or in fact deeply sort of culture affirmative? (01:15:19)

[John Mack] : The abduction phenomenon doesn't fall nicely into any kind of Judeo-Christian mythic structure with which I'm familiar from my reading of the Bible. It actually goes against it. It's rather at the most obvious manifest level. In fact, it's often called, it must come from the devil because it's so unimaginatively sort of real and crude. Little guys with big black eyes or luminous beings or reptilian ones or insect-like ones coming in, taking people against their will, leaving marks on their bodies. At the first blush, it's rather anything but the glorious mythic narratives of a formal religion. (01:16:06)

[John Mack] : It doesn't resemble it at all. I think it does defy categories and it does call for a discipline, as Bud is saying, that is rather new. Now, this media thing comes up all the time while people are getting it from the media. Let me ask you, if you see somebody who is deeply depressed, for instance, and they watch a program on, say, Nightline or on one of the self-help programs and they talk about depression. Would you argue, and that person comes in deeply depressed, that they invented the depression because they happen to see something on the television? (01:16:43)

[John Mack] : No. What they might do is they bring in a few terms that would help them give language to what they had seen. But I don't have the experience as a clinician of people inventing a powerful, deeply held experience from which you cannot shake them because they happen to see a few images on the television set. It doesn't work like that. As Bud says, in this phenomenon, the media follow the research. (01:17:08)

[Budd Hopkins] : Somebody once said to me, oh, this whole abduction phenomenon, it's like a cult. And I said, it's very interesting to bring that up because this is the precise opposite of a cult. A cult, like, let's say, the Reverend Moon or something like that, is all beliefs and no miracles. And we're all miracles and no beliefs. Because we literally do not know what this entails, what is going to happen next. We don't know, really, the physical nature of this. (01:17:33)

[Budd Hopkins] : We know it has totally physical properties, at least some of the time. The basic thing is that all of humanity, I think, wants to put this phenomenon into the gods or devils category. The old paradigm is that there are demons out there and there are godlike beings out there. And this, by God, we're going to make it fit. And it doesn't fit. We're going to end up at Green and fighting with him. It doesn't fit. (01:17:57)

[Chris] : Let me just say, this is the point. On the connection, we'd go to phone calls, which is to say, go to, you know, Linda in Woburn. But we're going to ask people to, if there are questions, and I hope there are, or brickbats or experiences or whatever, we'd like you to feel free to join the conversation. (01:18:21)

[SPEAKER_09] : On this mic, please. I want to ask for you to kind of summarize and synthesize from the reports that the abductees tell you of the behavior of the aliens, what the motivation and the modus operandi of the aliens seems to be. From what I know of it, it seems as though these are scientific expeditions that treat the abductees like we treat laboratory animals. And partly breeding expeditions, which again, treat the people they gather as sources of biology rather than feeling creatures. Can you add to that casual impression of mine? (01:19:08)

[SPEAKER_09] : After all, you said there were 600 cases. You know, what does it sum up to be? (01:19:11)

[Budd Hopkins] : What you've been saying, of course, I 100% concur with. People do feel like they're a laboratory specimen, involuntary specimen, in someone's ongoing experiment. And the breeding issues and so forth, their interest in human DNA and so forth, all of this is part and parcel of the reports that we've gotten from around the world. But I think there's another issue that's also interesting. They are extraordinarily curious about human emotions, our interior life, an emotional life that they don't seem to have themselves. (01:19:49)

[Budd Hopkins] : And very, very often they will present imagery or little scenes or something, who knows how this is done, as if they are creating kind of projective tests to see how human beings respond. Many human beings think that, many abductees think that when they're shown things, it's predictive, it shows the future. But essentially, it seems more logical, although who knows, that rather than predicting anything, they want to see our reaction. For instance, as John said, they'll show us images of devastation of the earth. (01:20:25)

[Budd Hopkins] : They might be extremely curious to see how we respond to the idea of a damaged planet. They seem to be very, very curious about how human beings relate to one another. They seem to be at the most basic human level. They're most interested, it would seem, in all the things that make us particularly human. They're not interested in our water supply or our atomic weapons or anything like that. They seem to be, thank God, interested in the things that most make us human. (01:20:51)

[Budd Hopkins] : John, do you want to take a crack at that? (01:20:53)

[John Mack] : Again, I'd like to stress that much of this really has to do with kind of different experiences with the experiencers. I know that many of this kind of cold indifference that Bud described, where we're just kind of laboratory animals, that's there. There's no question. And yet, at the same time, I've had very discriminating people who describe actual, evolving, deep, profound, loving bonds between the humans and these beings that last over time. That some experiences describe as many times more powerful than anything they can feel on earth. (01:21:35)

[John Mack] : Someone will describe a mate that is occurring in this other reality. And again, in my experience, this showing, for example, of apocalyptic scenes of devastation of the environment, of the earth, of the pollution, is not simply to test our reactions, but is a kind of desperate effort to communicate something about us to ourselves. It is not apparently the way the universe works that we're going to be saved as people. Why don't they save us if they can see all that? (01:22:08)

[John Mack] : Well, it doesn't work like that. It works to open up our consciousness in some way to what's going on. Now, I have a funny feeling, just here with you, that we're going to have to go further with this ontological question, because we're slipping into a kind of literalism about this. One of our most fundamental categories is, is this inside, is it outside, is it us, is it them? And even that category is up for questioning, it seems to me, in this phenomenon. (01:22:41)

[John Mack] : Back to the callers, please. (01:22:43)

[Chris] : I just feel if the flying saucers exist, we stand to lose a lot more by not taking them seriously than we lose by taking them seriously should they prove not to exist. And it's really a shame on all of us that we don't take it seriously. (01:22:59)

I agree. (01:22:59)

[SPEAKER_00] : Very good. I just have a brief statement and a question. First, I'd speak for myself, and I believe most other people here, we thank you for your courage in bringing this topic to the mainstream. And my question is this. You folks seem to be examining this issue on a psychological level. Have you given any thoughts or have others that you're aware of given thoughts to why these individuals are targeted for abduction on a physical level, DNA or chemical? Thank you. (01:23:32)

[Budd Hopkins] : I have seen nothing that I could pinpoint that would suggest a particular person has been abducted, other than we do recognize that children of abductees are likely to, at least some of them, be abducted as if a particular bloodline is being studied. But we don't know why that particular group. I have people from all races, people from the Orient, from the West, from South America, North America, from Europe. One of the most recent people I've been working with had all of his experiences in Israel. It is an international, global phenomenon and there's no way that anybody has been able to figure out anything that would suggest why particular people are targeted. (01:24:21)

[Budd Hopkins] : But we do know the psychological damage is pretty similar no matter where the people are abducted. (01:24:26)

[SPEAKER_05] : Hi, it seems to me that there's two issues here. One is the detail of how these abductees are abducted. And what the motivation or goal is of the aliens. But I don't really know if we can ever know that answer. And can actually distract from the bigger question, which is this changes our whole world view. And it changes our way of interpreting reality. And I'm wondering from John, you keep bringing up the issue of the ontology of it. And what is it that you want us to take away from this evening? (01:25:06)

[SPEAKER_05] : Since we're agents of interpreting life, there is no objective reality. It's us as interpreters. So what do we take away from this evening that is part of your understanding of this experience? (01:25:20)

[John Mack] : I suppose it's curiosity to ask, to deepen the question. Perhaps to be open to the idea that there may be other realities. That this Grand Canyon we've created between the so-called other realms. The fourth dimension, the subtle realm, the implicate order. That that world is not forever separate from our world. That there are people that, I'm not saying that it's separate for all of us. But for what we've been using as term mainstream. (01:26:03)

[John Mack] : And the mainstream reality, that world is the world of the subjective. It's the world of myth, it's the world of religion. But it doesn't show up. It isn't supposed to cross over and manifest physically in our world. And when it does do so, then the person who says it's physical will say the evidence isn't good enough. Or it isn't real. That barrier, those domains are supposed to be separate. And I guess one of the things I'd like to have this evening create for us is that those are not separate domains. (01:26:38)

[John Mack] : That there is interchange. That it can show up physically. Bud says how much it takes to convince somebody. I don't think that physical evidence by itself is going to give us... It's not going to give us a smoking gun. It's inviting us to stretch to reach it. I sometimes call this an outreach program from the cosmos to the spiritually impaired. In other words, it is cracking our consciousness to open to the fact that there is a vast range of realities out there that we can experience if we can crack this shell that we've created through the constrictions of our mindset. (01:27:13)

[Budd Hopkins] : I'd like to add something to this in terms of what we would like people... When I work with people and we're doing say a hypnotic session and they're in the middle of the experience. Perhaps they're on an examining table and they're reliving it. I will say to them very often, just as a kind of therapeutic device. If you could speak to the aliens right now, what would you ask them? What would you say to them? (01:27:38)

[Budd Hopkins] : In other words, you have now total freedom. What would you say to them? This is of course very important. What they generally want to say is, leave me alone. Leave us alone. And then they will say, explain what you want from us. What do you need? I would help you if you tell me. Why are you doing this? Why me? And one of the reasons I do this is I'm essentially wanting people to feel empowered in their own humanity. As I read in that statement, one of the most wonderful things is people really rediscover the richness of the human spirit and their own spirit. (01:28:15)

[Budd Hopkins] : And their own resources. By contrast, to the UFO occupants, who it seems to me are the spiritually impaired. They're here to, let's say, absorb what they can of the things that are the most wonderful things about human beings. The fact that we love one another, we have emotions, we have jokes, we make love, we have sex, we care for our babies, we care for our planet. They seem to be in awe of those human resources. (01:28:44)

[Budd Hopkins] : And if there's anything I would like people to come away with tonight, it's the fact that they have a new sense of the specialness of being human beings. And the fact that whatever this is from the outside or whatever its ultimate goals are, it's a poor, thin, spiritual being in relation to human beings and the richness of the human spirit. (01:29:07)

[John Mack] : I'm a humanist. I'm not saying that aliens are these spiritual beings. I'm saying that for complex reasons that we're struggling with tonight, the effect of this is often some kind of spiritual growth or expansion. I'm not saying that aliens are these wonderful spiritual beings. No way. You know, it's interesting. I hear what you just said. I sort of have a yes, no, and then yes. I sort of half agree with you. (01:29:32)

[John Mack] : Like, leave us alone, no. Some people, yes, leave us alone. Others feel deeply aggrieved when their experiences stop, if the experiences are of the more deeply bonding, connected way. Where I totally agree with you is that they are absolutely fascinated with our physicality, our spirituality, our love, our sexuality, our sensuality. I also see us learning a lot from opening our consciousness to this other realm. (01:29:56)

[SPEAKER_05] : I just wanted to say one more thing. I think that we're equally fascinated with them. I don't see there's an imbalance here. I mean, we're all here because we're also curious and maybe we would do the same thing. (01:30:08)

[Budd Hopkins] : I'm not really interested in the aliens at all. I'm interested in us, but I really don't care about the aliens. I don't like what they do. You know, there's a term for this. (01:30:18)

[John Mack] : Actually, a philosopher, Michael Zimmer, you know him, right? He calls this anthropocentric humanism. Which is a good thing, in a way. (01:30:30)

[SPEAKER_04] : My name is Karin. I'm an experiencer. And I, just for the record, am working currently with John. But, Bud, my question is mostly, or my statement is mostly for you. Well, I have all due respect for John and his talents as a therapist and a psychotherapist. He's a very wonderful man and a wonderful listener in the professional relationship that I've come to know him. He has, not by any standard, been the one responsible for my spiritual growth in this experience. What he and his colleagues provide for me is an opportunity to stand or sit down in a room for a couple of hours and get rid of a lot of stuff that I can't tell to anybody else. (01:31:16)

[SPEAKER_04] : I don't think that we're ever going to know, or at least for a long time, what this experience is about. I was a Rush Limbaugh watching, right-wing, very square box, very three-dimensional, very much, I don't think, you know, maybe somewhere out in Arizona somewhere 30 years ago, some guy maybe got abducted, I don't know. It didn't have anything to do with my reality. I think that each experiencer who's going through this knows that this is very much an individual experience. (01:31:46)

[SPEAKER_04] : And each person, depending on where they are in their life, where they were with their parents, where they were with their relationships, with everything, is going to come out with something different. For as difficult as it is for us as human beings to not have boxes, it's very important in this experience to not have a box, because we don't have any answers. We have nothing but questions. And I experience terror, and I experience joy. (01:32:11)

[SPEAKER_04] : And I experience them simultaneously. One minute I'm this, and the next I'm that. And I know you're familiar with that. But I think it's very important that something is obviously, definitely happening. And if we close ourselves to it, we will be missing perhaps one of the most incredible experiences that mankind is to develop. And I think it's important that we stay open, period. Thank you. (01:32:30)

[SPEAKER_11] : And I know that you, Bud, and I think John, you also realize that there was a long research tradition in ufology before Bud opened up this field of abduction studies in the early 80s. And there's been a lot of criticism and controversy within the field of ufology about the research paradigm that you both follow, especially that you rely too much on hypnosis. John, do you want to comment, particularly on the hypnosis question? (01:33:00)

[John Mack] : Well, I've tried to demystify the hypnosis question. There are traditions in hypnosis that go back to Mesmer, which has a sort of theatricality related to it, with a deep trance, a person lying down, a certain kind of power the hypnotist has over the person, the idea that they're being suggested to. And these traditions die hard, and maybe even the practice of them dies hard. What I try to do is... I don't even use the term anymore. First of all, the great bulk of the information I get is from what is called ordinary conversation, not from hypnosis. (01:33:42)

[John Mack] : I will sometimes do what is called regressions or hypnosis, but really it's nothing more than a simple relaxation exercise. You simply try to stop the flood of social stimuli to let the person just relax and say... and open to the recall of some event in their lives. And it's not particularly hokey, and what comes up in that context, as Bud says, is no more or less consistently reliable or consistently distorted than the efforts to make themselves look good and to speak to what makes sense to them in ordinary conversation. (01:34:20)

[Budd Hopkins] : Also, one thing that can be said is that in every hypnotic regression session that I do, I build into it dozens of test questions that can help me try to lead the person, to see if they're leadable, away from what happens to be truth that I know about the patterns or about other witnesses in the same case or whatnot. So you can test it internally, and I do this consistently. Please. (01:34:46)

[John Mack] : Have you looked into any of the so-called channeled writings or telepathically received information? (01:34:55)

[Budd Hopkins] : My issue of... sometimes I've had people begin to channel a couple of times. And typically once a woman began to channel and she started speaking in a very strange voice and she was sort of an alien from wherever. And I, of course, did what I usually do in a case like that. I said, this is very important. I need to know this. What can you tell me about the UFO base in the waters of Lake Owenoko? Which I had just made up as a name. (01:35:29)

[Budd Hopkins] : That wasn't a name, whatever it was. And she gave me a full account of the base down there. Every channeler will tell you, don't listen to the other channelers. You know, I've got the truth. I don't think that's fair to channeling. (01:35:43)

[John Mack] : I really don't. I don't use channeling because I have enough trouble already. But I think we need ways of trying to decide how to use that information and be critical about it because we don't have any way to access whatever that other, if it isn't other, intelligence is. How do you evaluate? For example, if the person is channeling something, you can show that there's just no way they could have known that from their Earth reality. That's interesting. (01:36:12)

[John Mack] : But people don't usually take the trouble to establish that. (01:36:15)

[SPEAKER_06] : I'm really grateful that the three of you are here and Pierre has gotten us all together because I think this is just certainly stretching my mind a lot and really interesting. And one of the things that just keeps coming to me as a theme is I notice the way I keep going back to wanting to find the answer and figure out the thing. And it seems like that's a theme that we keep coming back to in different forms. Like, who are these people? (01:36:38)

[SPEAKER_06] : Why are they here? What's their goal? What are we supposed to learn from them? If there were a being of some sort coming from somewhere other than the Earth that wanted to do a reconnaissance and get to know these two-legged creatures on this planet, if they came with this idea that they were going to find out the answer about these two-legged creatures and what they're about, and they sent a little committee, they'd probably have a debate much like this one where they'd be going, well, what they're really about is they're really about something they're calling science and some sort of study. (01:37:11)

[SPEAKER_06] : And somebody else would say, no, they're really about using everything up there as fast as they can. And somebody else would say it's all about emotions. And maybe those people out there are at least as diverse as we are, only more so, because they've got these interdimensional awarenesses that they're kind of knocking on us and saying, hey, but there's more. You can do this, too. (01:37:33)

[John Mack] : That's not exactly a question, but I wonder if... Well, I'd just like to... It's more a comment. That state of uncertainty, confusion, stretching... It's kind of like what I would have liked to answer to the person that asked what I wanted people to get out of the evening, is to have them sort of end up where you are right now. (01:37:48)

[Chris] : I wish you'd both sort of give us a minute wrap, sum up what we've learned and what we ought to be thinking about as we depart. I've taken a complete pledge for myself against any judgment on my own part. I'd love to hear judgments from you, though, about what kind of ground we've covered and where we are. (01:38:12)

[Budd Hopkins] : In terms of what we've accomplished tonight, I think one thing is that we've shown that in terms of the raw data, John and I really have exactly the same kinds of material presented by the populations that we've worked with over these many years. I think that the basic difference comes in terms of the interpretation, the spin put on the experiences. And I think that, in general, I suppose John is urging a greater curiosity on the part of the people he works with about the aliens themselves and about what their intentions may be and the whole issue that he's mentioned about ecological concerns and so on. I tend to, by contrast, I think, try to accent living well as the best revenge, so to speak. (01:39:08)

[Budd Hopkins] : Trying to get people to face the richness of their own lives, their own resources, their own inner strengths, and to put the aliens as much out of their minds as they possibly can to try to live a normal life. There's no way, of course, when you tell somebody who's been through this to put the aliens out of their mind. No one ever possibly can because it's too enormous a fact. But I think that I want this to be a world in which the human spirit is central and it's our deepest and most important value and we're not looking in a needy way to some external force that is as mysterious and elusive and misleading as the UFO occupants. (01:39:54)

[Budd Hopkins] : I simply don't trust them. And I feel that what we have to learn is what we have within us to begin with and what other humans can give us. And that's as simple as I can state it as my position on this whole crazy business. (01:40:08)

[John Mack] : Yeah, I think I feel less kind of protective and anthropocentric than Bud does. I think that I don't see the... I don't feel that this is unwelcome in general. I know that it's traumatic for many people and I think that, as we've said, that we need to work with people's distresses. But I think that the phenomenon has such vast implications for us in terms of who we are in our universe. And it seems to me that, in a certain sense, anything that can kind of shatter this arrogance around the notion that we're the superior intelligence alone in the cosmos is, in general, a rather good thing. (01:41:01)

[John Mack] : In other words, that... that it can open us to vast other realms of reality that are far beyond this immediate, however pleasant, Earth environment. I think that this phenomenon, insofar as it undercuts and does some damage to that anthropocentrism, is a good thing. That doesn't mean I don't think human beings can be wonderful and have a wonderful, resilient spirit. But I think we also have a tremendous kind of cosmic egoism, which this phenomenon has a way of rather challenging, to say the least. So that's kind of where I am with it. (01:41:45)

[Chris] : Excellent. I think those are two eloquent summations. (01:41:49)

[SPEAKER_08] : Question here, please. Most of the people that you seem to have interviewed don't expect to be abducted and it seems that there's a lot of trauma, etc. What about people like me who sometimes feel like, hey, I might want to meet an alien? Have you ever interviewed people like that? Are there any people that you've interviewed that have actually wanted to meet them? (01:42:19)

[Budd Hopkins] : Yes, but I've never been able to arrange it for anybody. Thank you. And thank you all. (01:42:31)

(2025-09-14)