David Marler ： 1964-06-02, ニューメキシコ州 : 白昼、黒いコマ型 UFO が少年に火炎を放射。祖母も現場で目撃 → 火傷で入院：証言音声つき (2)

前置き

下の過去記事、

David Marler：1964-06-02, ニューメキシコ州：白昼、黒いコマ型 UFO が少年に火炎を放射。祖母も現場で目撃 → 火傷で入院：証言音声つき (2024-06-30)

の情報源となった動画を AI で整理した。Charles Davis（被害本人）も動画に登場している。

要旨

AI

UFO火傷被害者の失われた記録

この音源は、マーティン・ウィリスがホストを務めるポッドキャストからの抜粋で、UFO研究家のデイビッド・マーラーがゲスト出演しています。二人は主に‌‌1964年にニューメキシコ州ホブスで起きたUFOによる火傷事件‌‌について語っています。

この事件では、8歳の少年が‌‌黒いコマ型UFOから発せられた炎によって重度の火傷を負いましたが、不思議なことに痛みはなく、長期的な傷跡も残りませんでした。‌‌ マーラーは、この56年間公に語られることのなかったケースを、‌‌ジェームズ・マクドナルドのアーカイブからの音声記録や当時の新聞記事、警察記録、FBIの関与といった証拠‌‌を基に再調査しました。

また、マーラーの研究方法やUFOに関する幅広い知識、さらには‌‌アリゾナ大学とニューメキシコ大学にUFO関連資料を寄贈するプロジェクト‌‌についても触れられています。ポッドキャストの終盤では、少年チャールズと彼の祖母、母親による当時の証言音声も公開され、その信憑性が強調されています。

目次

1. 前置き
2. 要旨
3. 切り出し静止画
4. 概要
   1. 事件の発見とDavid Marler氏の調査方法:
   2. 事件の詳細と目撃証言:
   3. 事件後の調査と家族の反応:
   4. 他の類似ケース:
   5. UFO研究と信頼性に関するMarler氏の視点:
   6. David Marler氏のアーカイブと研究の未来:
   7. 結論
5. 事件概要
6. Chales の負傷と回復
   1. 負傷の発生と状況
   2. チャールズが受けた物理的な負傷
   3. 病院での治療と調査
   4. 負傷における特異な側面
   5. 驚異的な回復と長期的な影響
7. 事件の調査
   1. 当時の初期調査
   2. 現代における再調査（デビッド・マーラー氏による）
8. Charles の視点
9. 他の類似事例
10. 情報源と関連研究
    1. 1. 事件の一次情報源と初期調査
    2. 2. デイビッド・マーラー氏の研究方法論と貢献
    3. 3. 関連する類似ケースと研究
11. UFO 現象の考察
    1. 1. UFO現象の物理的特性と異常な影響
    2. 2. UFO現象の研究における課題とマーラー氏のアプローチ
    3. 3. UFO現象のパターンとより大きな文脈
    4. 4. UFO現象に対する個人の反応と社会の対応
12. 時系列
13. 主要関係者
14. 情報源
    1. 動画付属概要欄
15. 文字起こし（話者識別）

切り出し静止画

概要

AI

詳細ブリーフィングドキュメント：UFO火傷被害者の失われた記録（1964年ホッブス事件）

概要

このブリーフィングドキュメントは、David MarlerとMartin Willisによるポッドキャスト「Forgotten 1964 UFO Burn Victim Case」から得られた情報に基づき、1964年6月2日にニューメキシコ州ホッブスで発生した、UFOによる8歳の少年チャールズ・デイビスの火傷事件を詳述する。Marler氏は、この「失われた」事件を掘り起こし、被害者と彼の家族、そして事件当時の文書（新聞記事、警察記録、FBI記録）を通じて、その信頼性と異常性を強調している。

主なテーマと重要なアイデア/事実

事件の発見とDavid Marler氏の調査方法:

• Marler氏は、故Dr. James McDonaldのアーカイブにある古い音声録音を調べている際に、この事件を発見した。McDonald氏は1960年代半ばから後半にかけて数百人ものUFO目撃者にインタビューしており、その中にはチャールズの祖母と母親、そしてチャールズ自身も含まれていた。
• Marler氏は、McDonald氏の録音とAPRO（Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization）の報告（1964年後半のAPRO Bulletinの表紙を飾った「Boy Burned in New Mexico」の記事）を基に、当時8歳だったチャールズが現在も存命している可能性が高いと判断し、目撃者の追跡調査を開始した。
• 驚くべき偶然の一致により、Marler氏が訪れたビジネス出張先の都市からわずか2マイルの場所にチャールズが住んでいることを突き止めた。電話番号が無効であったため、彼はチャールズの自宅に直接訪問し、事件について尋ねた。
• Marler氏は「新しいことは必ずしも信頼できることではない。実際、歴史的な事件の多くは今日私たちが受け取るものよりも良く文書化されている」と述べ、現代の匿名性が高い報告（例：「UFOBob at Yahoo.com」）よりも、過去の新聞記事や警察、FBIの記録に裏打ちされた事件の重要性を強調している。

事件の詳細と目撃証言:

• 日付と場所: 1964年6月2日午後4時頃、ニューメキシコ州ホッブスにあるチャールズの祖父母が所有するコインランドリーの裏庭で発生。
• 被害者: チャールズ・デイビス（当時8歳）。
• UFOの形状と行動:チャールズは、隣接するアパートの屋根の上に出現した「黒いこま型の物体」を目撃した。
• 彼はその物体を「幅約2～3フィート、高さ5～6フィート」と描写しており、従来の「30フィートの洗練された銀色の空飛ぶ円盤」とは異なる、比較的小さなUFOであった。
• チャールズが動くと、物体も彼の動きを模倣して左右に動いた。
• チャールズが物体の視界から隠れようとコンクリートブロックの陰にしゃがみ込んだ後、再び立ち上がって動くと、物体は「一瞬のうちに彼に向かって突進し」、彼の真上に浮上した。
• チャールズは「車が向かってくるようで、時間内に動けないとわかるときの衝撃に備えるような感じ」と述べ、衝突を予期して目を閉じ、身を固めた。
• 火傷の状況:物体はチャールズの真上で「頭からつま先まで火を噴き出し、彼を炎に包み込んだ」。
• 祖母（Grady Smith）の証言：「炎は彼の顔から皮膚が文字通り剥がれ落ちていた」。
• 火傷の診断は、公式には「2度熱傷」であったが、チャールズと母親は「2度および3度熱傷」であったとMcDonald氏に語っている。
• 母親の証言：「彼の顔はひどく腫れ上がり、鼻さえ見えなかった。顔全体に黒い煤のようなものが付着し、ほとんどの髪の毛が焼けていた。耳はひき肉のようになり、唇もひどく焼けていた。一時的に失明した」。
• 異常な現象:痛みの欠如: チャールズは火傷を負った際に「痛みがなかった」と述べている。「ショックだったのかもしれないが、ひどい痛みは覚えていない」。
• 奇跡的な回復: ひどい火傷にもかかわらず、チャールズの顔には「傷跡が一切残らなかった」。Marler氏は「もし彼を今日見ても、火傷を負ったとは決して分からないだろう」と述べている。
• 火傷の範囲の矛盾: 祖母は「頭からつま先まで炎に包まれた」と証言したが、唯一の火傷の痕跡は顎のラインから上（顔と頭）のみで、首や肩、着ていたTシャツは無傷だった。
• 物体の意図: チャールズは「それが私を知っていたように感じたし、私がそこにいると知っていたように感じた」と述べ、物体と自身の間に「相互認識があった」と感じていた。また、「私を誘拐したり連れ去ったりする意味ではないが、それを見たとき、何かが間違っていると感じた」と語っている。
• 音: 祖母は「ヒューッという音」や「渦巻くような音」を聞いたと証言している。チャールズは「ヒューッという音が1、2回聞こえた」と述べている。

事件後の調査と家族の反応:

• 地元当局の関与: ホッブス警察署とFBIが事件を調査した。警察は当初、子供がマッチで遊んでいた、ボイラーからの蒸気、燃える綿埃など、常識的な説明を試みたが、いずれも証拠が見つからなかった。
• FBIの関与: 祖母のブラウス、チャールズのTシャツ、そして皮膚の削り屑がFBIの研究所に送られた。しかし、家族には結果が伝えられることはなかった。
• Marler氏はFBIに情報公開法（FOIA）に基づいて記録を請求したが、第三者に関わるとして却下された。チャールズ本人名義で再提出されたが、その後の進展は不明。
• 家族の態度: チャールズの家族は、熱心なUFO信者ではなく、保守的なペンテコステ派のビジネスオーナーであった。彼らは publicityを求めず、金銭的な利益もなかった（むしろ医療費を負担した）。
• チャールズの妻は、Marler氏が訪問するまで事件の詳細を知らなかった。
• チャールズは長年、この事件について話すことを拒否し、「押し入れにしまって」忘れ去ろうとしていた。彼は「これは何か軍事的なもので、ホワイトサンズ・ミサイル射場かホロマン空軍基地から逸れたものに違いない」と考えていた。
• 55年後になってMarler氏と話すことで、彼は「軍事的な説明」に疑問を抱き始めた。彼は「今日のドローンがどう動くか知っているが、1964年にあんなものがあったとは思えない。もしあったとしても、なぜ8歳の子供を捜し出して火傷させるのか？」と疑問を呈した。

他の類似ケース:

• Jacques Valléeが初期の著書『A Challenge to Science』で言及したフランスのケースに、今回のような「こま型UFO」のスケッチと寸法が驚くほど一致する事例があった。
• 1964年6月29日（チャールズの事件の約2～3週間後）にジョージア州リボニアで発生した、セールスマンのビュフォード・パーハムの事件。彼は「黒いこま型の物体が火を噴き出している」のを目撃し、 intenseな熱を感じて腕に火傷を負った。
• その後、ジョージア州では85マイル圏内で、同様の「黒いこま型で火を噴き出すUFO」を目撃する複数の事件が数週間のうちに発生した。これらの事件の多くには、UFOを目撃した地元の法執行機関の職員も関与していた。

UFO研究と信頼性に関するMarler氏の視点:

• Marler氏は、UFO現象を真剣に研究するためには「感情を抑え、理性でアプローチする」必要があると強調する。彼は「すべてのUFOビデオは、証明されるまではでっち上げである」というスタンスを取っている。
• 今日のデジタル操作技術の進歩により、偽のUFOビデオが意図的に拡散されている現実を指摘し、政府よりも一般市民が誤報を広めるケースが多いと述べている。
• 歴史的なケースは、当時の新聞記事、警察記録、FBI記録といった「正当な文書」に裏打ちされている点で、現代のケースよりも信頼性が高い場合が多いと主張している。

David Marler氏のアーカイブと研究の未来:

• Marler氏は、数万点に及ぶUFO関連の文書を所蔵しており、最終的にはニューメキシコ大学（UNM）に寄贈し、将来の研究者のために保存する予定である。
• 彼はUNMの図書館関係者に対し、UFO現象を「歴史の一部」として捉え、客観的かつ学術的なアプローチで研究することの重要性を説き、受け入れられている。

結論

ホッブスの火傷事件は、目撃者の証言、複数の第三者の確認、当時の公的記録（新聞、警察、FBI）という点で、極めて信頼性の高いUFO事件である。物体が子供の動きを模倣し、物理的な火傷を負わせたにもかかわらず、その後の奇妙な回復や痛みの欠如、そして火傷範囲の矛盾は、従来の科学的説明では困難である。

Marler氏の徹底した調査は、UFO研究において歴史的文書と目撃証言の重要性を浮き彫りにし、未解決の謎に対してより深く、客観的なアプローチが求められることを示している。この事件は、UFO現象が単なる「空の光」の目撃ではなく、物理的な相互作用と、我々の理解を超える異常な特性を持つ可能性を示唆している。

事件概要

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件の概要について、ソースではデビッド・マーラー氏が「失われた記録」の中から掘り起こし、50年以上ぶりに公に議論されている、‌‌非常に信頼性の高い、しかし未解明な事件‌‌として詳しく説明されています。

この事件の概要とそれが示唆する文脈は以下の通りです。

‌‌事件の発生と被害者‌‌

• ‌‌発生日時と場所‌‌: 1964年6月2日火曜日の午後4時頃、ニューメキシコ州ホブスにあるチャールズの祖父母が所有するコインランドリーの裏庭で発生しました。
• ‌‌被害者‌‌: 被害者は当時8歳だった少年チャールズ・キース・デイビスで、現在も存命しています。
• ‌‌主要な目撃者‌‌: チャールズ本人と彼の祖母です。祖母はコインランドリーの裏口のすぐ内側に立っており、チャールズが裏庭で遊んでいるのを目撃していました。

‌‌UFOの出現と特徴‌‌

• ‌‌出現‌‌: チャールズが裏庭で遊んでいた際、隣接するアパートの屋根の上から‌‌黒いコマ型（top-shaped）の物体‌‌が出現しました。
• ‌‌大きさ‌‌: チャールズの証言によると、この物体は幅が約2～3フィート、高さが5～6フィートと、比較的‌‌小型‌‌でした。マーラー氏はこれを「大型のUFOではない」と強調しています。
• ‌‌動き‌‌: チャールズが物体に気づくと、彼は「それが自分の存在を知っているように感じた」と語っています。チャールズが左右に動くと、物体も彼の動きを模倣して左右に動きました。チャールズが隠れようとコンクリートの塊の後ろに身をかがめ、再び立ち上がって動くと、物体は一瞬のうちに彼に向かって加速し、チャールズは「車が向かってくるようで、間に合わないと思い、衝撃に備えて目を閉じた」と述べています。
• ‌‌攻撃‌‌: 物体はチャールズの頭上約1フィートのところにホバリングし、‌‌頭からつま先まで火を噴き出し、チャールズを炎に包みました‌‌。この出来事は数秒で起こり、火が消えると物体はすぐに飛び去りました。祖母は「シュー」または「ヒュー」という音を聞いたと証言しています。

‌‌チャールズの火傷と驚くべき回復‌‌

• ‌‌負傷‌‌: チャールズは顔に‌‌第2度および第3度の火傷‌‌を負いました。祖母は、火傷の後、チャールズの顔から皮膚が文字通り剥がれ落ちていたと語っています。彼の髪は燃え、ほとんどが焼け落ち、耳はひどく焼けただれて生肉のようになり、裏返しになったように見えました。顔はひどく腫れ、鼻すら見えなくなり、一時的に失明しました。
• ‌‌特異な症状‌‌: 最も驚くべき点は、これほど重度の火傷を負ったにもかかわらず、‌‌チャールズが事件当時から痛みを全く感じなかった‌‌と証言していることです。彼は衝撃状態だったためだと推測していますが、代わりにひどい痒みに苦しんだと述べています。
• ‌‌火傷の範囲と回復‌‌: 祖母はチャールズが頭からつま先まで火に包まれたと断言していますが、実際に火傷の痕跡が見られたのは顎のラインから上だけであり、首、肩、Tシャツは完全に無傷でした。さらに、今日ではチャールズの顔に‌‌火傷の瘢痕が全く残っておらず‌‌、耳も元に戻っています。長期的な影響としては、右耳の聴覚障害と、事件後に必要となった眼鏡が挙げられます。

‌‌事件後の調査と未解明な側面‌‌

• ‌‌病院での治療‌‌: 祖父はチャールズをリー総合病院に運び、彼は火傷専門医バジャー医師による治療を受け、約1週間入院しました。
• ‌‌警察とFBIの関与‌‌: ホブス警察署とFBIがこの事件の調査に関与しました。警察は当初、ローマ字のロウソク、蒸気、燃えた綿くず、あるいはチャールズがマッチで遊んでいた可能性などの説明を模索しましたが、どれも裏付けられませんでした。
• ‌‌証拠の行方‌‌: FBIはチャールズの祖母のブラウス、Tシャツ、および皮膚の削りかすを分析のために持ち帰りましたが、家族はその後一切の結果を聞かされていません。マーラー氏はFBIにFOIA（情報公開法）申請を行いましたが、プライバシーを理由に却下され、チャールズ本人名義で再申請を試みていますが、まだ結果は出ていません。病院の記録も、10年の保管期間を過ぎているため入手不可能です。
• ‌‌APROによる初期調査‌‌: この事件はAPRO（Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization）によって調査され、1964年後半のAPRO Bulletinのカバー記事になりました。APROは当時、この事件を「信頼できる」と判断しています。

‌‌チャールズの反応とマーラー氏の再調査‌‌

• ‌‌沈黙の56年‌‌: チャールズは事件後、初期のメディアの注目を除いて、56年間公にこのことについて話すことを避けてきました。彼はUFO信者でも懐疑論者でもなく、ごく普通のビジネスマンであり、UFOは彼の世界の一部ではありませんでした。彼と家族は、この事件を「クローゼットにしまい込み」、忘れて人生を歩むことを選びました。
• ‌‌軍事機密説‌‌: チャールズは長年、この物体はニューメキシコ州のホワイトサンズ・ミサイル射場やホロマン空軍基地から外れた軍事的なものだったのではないかと考えていました。しかし、マーラー氏との最近の対話を通じて、1964年にチャールズの動きを模倣し、これほど素早く動く技術が軍にあったのか、またなぜ8歳の子供を火傷させるのか、という疑問を抱き始め、「それがどんなものであっても、筋が通らない」と述べています。
• ‌‌マーラー氏の追跡‌‌: デビッド・マーラー氏は、ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のアーカイブに残された音声記録からこの事件を発見しました。彼はチャールズを追跡する中で、偶然にも出張先のホテルから2マイルの距離にチャールズが住んでいることを知り、電話番号が全て無効だったため、直接彼の家を訪ねました。チャールズは当初、15～20年前であれば話さなかっただろうと語っていますが、マーラー氏の誠実さと、人生のこの段階（60代半ば）で他人の意見を気にしなくなったことから、事件について語ることを決意しました。彼の妻でさえ、マーラー夫妻がインタビューに来るまで事件の詳細を知りませんでした。
• ‌‌信憑性‌‌: マーティン・ウィリスはチャールズを「非常に信頼できる証人」と評価しており、彼には何も得るものがないにもかかわらず証言している点を強調しています。

‌‌類似事例との関連‌‌

• マーラー氏は、この事件が孤立したものではない可能性を示唆しています。ジャック・ヴァレの初期の著書で言及されたフランスの事件では、同様の「空飛ぶコマ」が目撃され、その寸法は今回の事件と一致していました。
• この事件の約2～3週間後、ジョージア州リボニアでセールスマンが「黒いコマ型で火を噴く物体」に遭遇し、腕に火傷を負う事件が発生しています。
• さらにその後6～8週間で、ジョージア州の85マイル圏内で複数の同様の目撃情報があり、中には地元の法執行機関がUFOを目撃したケースも含まれていました。これは、特定の時期に特定の形状のUFOによる熱傷・火傷被害が広範囲で発生していた可能性を示唆しています。

これらの情報から、1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件は、単なる光の目撃ではなく、昼間の構造物の目撃、8歳児への物理的な傷害、そして現代の技術では説明できない驚異的な治癒と痛みの欠如を伴う、‌‌UFO現象の文脈において非常に特異で重要なケース‌‌であることが分かります。デビッド・マーラー氏の「信頼できるもの」を追求する調査アプローチによって、この「失われた記録」が再び光を浴び、UFO現象研究における重要なピースとして提示されています。

Chales の負傷と回復

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件におけるチャールズ・キース・デイビス少年の負傷と回復について、ソースは事件の特異性と未解明な性質を強調しています。この事件は、デビッド・マーラー氏が「失われた記録」の中から発見し、50年以上ぶりに公に議論されることになった、‌‌非常に信頼性の高い、しかし未解明な事件‌‌として紹介されています。

負傷の発生と状況

事件は1964年6月2日火曜日の午後4時頃、当時8歳だったチャールズが、ニューメキシコ州ホブスにある祖父母のコインランドリーの裏庭で遊んでいる最中に発生しました。チャールズの祖母は、コインランドリーの裏口のすぐ内側に立っており、チャールズの様子を見ていました。

チャールズが隣接するアパートの屋根の上から出現した‌‌黒いコマ型（top-shaped）の物体‌‌に気づき、その物体が彼の動きを模倣するような奇妙な動きをした後、一瞬のうちにチャールズに向かって加速し、頭上約1フィートのところにホバリングしました。その直後、物体はチャールズの頭からつま先まで火を噴き出し、彼を炎に包みました。この出来事はわずか数秒で起こり、火が消えると物体はすぐに飛び去りました。祖母は「シュー」または「ヒュー」という音を聞いたと証言しています。

チャールズが受けた物理的な負傷

炎に包まれた後、チャールズは火傷を負いました。祖母は、チャールズが自分の方に走ってくるのを見た時、彼の髪が燃え、顔から皮膚が文字通り剥がれ落ちているのを目撃したと証言しています。

チャールズは‌‌顔に第2度および第3度の火傷‌‌を負いました。彼の髪は燃え、ほとんどが焼け落ちていました。母親と祖母の証言によると、火傷の後、チャールズの顔はひどく腫れ上がり、鼻すら見えなくなり、一時的に失明状態になりました。耳もひどく焼けただれて「生肉のよう」に見え、裏返しになったように見えたとチャールズは語っています。彼の唇もひどく焼けました。

驚くべきことに、祖母はチャールズが頭からつま先まで火に包まれたと断言しているにもかかわらず、実際に火傷の痕跡が見られたのは‌‌顎のラインから上の部分だけであり、首、肩、彼が着ていたTシャツは完全に無傷‌‌でした。

病院での治療と調査

祖父はすぐにチャールズをリー総合病院に運び、彼は火傷専門医のバジャー医師による治療を受け、約1週間入院しました。その後も1～2ヶ月にわたってフォローアップの診察を受けました。

ホブス警察署とFBIがこの事件の調査に関与しました。警察は当初、ローマ字のロウソク、蒸気、燃えた綿くず、あるいはチャールズがマッチで遊んでいた可能性などの説明を模索しました。チャールズ自身も、病院で警察官からマッチで遊んでいないか尋ねられたことを覚えています。しかし、これらのどれも裏付けられることはなく、現場には燃えた跡すら見つかりませんでした。

FBIは、チャールズの祖母のブラウス、チャールズのTシャツ、および彼の顔から剥がれ落ちた皮膚の削りかすを分析のために持ち帰りましたが、家族はその後、結果について一切知らされませんでした。マーラー氏は情報公開法（FOIA）申請を行いましたが、プライバシーを理由に却下され、チャールズ本人名義で再申請を試みていますが、まだ結果は出ていません。病院の記録も、10年の保管期間を過ぎているため入手不可能です。

負傷における特異な側面

この事件で最も特異な点は、チャールズがこれほど重度の火傷を負ったにもかかわらず、‌‌事件当時から痛みを全く感じなかった‌‌と証言していることです。彼は衝撃状態だったためだと推測していますが、その代わりにひどい痒みに苦しんだと述べています。祖母も、チャールズが皮膚を掻きむしるのを防ぐため、24時間付き添わなければならなかったと語っています。医師もこの痒みを理解できなかったと述べています。また、チャールズは火傷の匂いを覚えていないと述べています。

驚異的な回復と長期的な影響

さらに驚くべきことに、今日ではチャールズの顔に‌‌火傷の瘢痕が全く残っておらず‌‌、耳も元に戻っています。マーティン・ウィリスは、皮膚が剥がれ落ちるほどの火傷を負ったにもかかわらず瘢痕がないことは非常に奇妙な側面だと指摘しています。

長期的な影響としては、右耳の聴覚障害と、事件後に必要となった眼鏡が挙げられます。医師は、目にさらされた熱の結果として眼鏡が必要になったと示唆しました。

チャールズ自身も、事件が「馬鹿げている（doesn't make any sense）」と感じており、何が起こったのか、なぜ起こったのか、誰にも答えられないと考えています。彼は長年、これがホワイトサンズ・ミサイル射場やホロマン空軍基地から逸脱した軍事的なものだったのではないかと考えていましたが、マーラー氏との最近の対話を通じて、1964年の技術で彼の動きを模倣し、これほど素早く移動し、8歳の子供を火傷させる理由があるのか疑問を抱き、「筋が通らない」と述べています。

このチャールズの負傷と驚異的な回復は、この事件を単なるUFO目撃ではなく、‌‌物理的な影響と医学的矛盾を伴う、未解明で信頼性の高いケース‌‌として際立たせています。

事件の調査

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件の調査に関して、ソースは、‌‌事件の信頼性と未解明な性質‌‌を際立たせる複数の調査機関の関与を詳述しています。デビッド・マーラー氏は、このケースを「失われた記録」の中から掘り起こし、50年以上ぶりに公に議論されることになった「非常に信頼性の高い、しかし未解明な事件」として紹介しています。

当時の初期調査

1. ‌‌APRO (空中現象研究機構) による調査‌‌:

   • この事件は、APRO (Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization) によって最初に調査され、彼らの機関誌「APRO Bulletin」の1964年後半号のトップ記事として掲載されました。マーラー氏は、このAPRO Bulletinの記事で初めてこの事件を知ったと述べています。
   • APROは当時、この事件を‌‌信頼性が高いと見なしていた‌‌ようです。
   • しかし、マーラー氏の研究によると、APROによる調査は主に電話によるもので、‌‌現地調査は行われていなかった‌‌とされています。

2. ‌‌ホブス警察署の関与‌‌:

   • ニューメキシコ州ホブスの警察署は、この事件の調査に積極的に関与しました。
   • 警察は当初、ローマ字のろうそく、蒸気、燃えた綿くず、あるいはチャールズがマッチで遊んでいた可能性など、‌‌ありふれた説明‌‌を模索していました。チャールズ自身も、病院で警察官からマッチで遊んでいないか尋ねられたことを覚えていると語っています。
   • しかし、これらの可能性はどれも‌‌裏付けられることはありませんでした‌‌。現場には燃えた跡すら見つからず、カリチェと呼ばれる硬い粘土質の土壌であったため、燃えるものがほとんどなかったことも一因です。
   • 後に新聞記事では、これらの説には根拠がないと報じられました。
   • ホブス警察はデビッド・マーラー氏の問い合わせに対して協力的でしたが、1964年当時の記録はマイクロフィルム化された古いケースファイルの中にも残っていなかったと述べています。

3. ‌‌FBI (連邦捜査局) の関与‌‌:

   • FBIもこの事件の調査に関与していました。
   • FBIは、チャールズの祖母が着ていたブラウス、チャールズのTシャツ、そしてチャールズの顔から剥がれ落ちた皮膚の削りかすを分析のために持ち帰りました。
   • しかし、家族はその後、‌‌分析結果について一切知らされませんでした‌‌。
   • チャールズは、ホブス警察とFBIの職員が火傷後に病院に現れたことを鮮明に覚えており、FBIの捜査官の方がより同情的で、話を聞こうとする姿勢だったと証言しています。

現代における再調査（デビッド・マーラー氏による）

1. ‌‌資料の発見と再構築‌‌:

   • デビッド・マーラー氏は、ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のアーカイブに残された古い音声記録から、この「忘れ去られた」ケースを発見しました。マクドナルド博士は、事件から4年後の1968年にチャールズの祖母と母親にインタビューを行っていました。
   • マーラー氏は、当時ニューメキシコ州に住んでいたことから、この事件の目撃者であるチャールズを追跡することを決意しました。彼は広範囲な調査の末、チャールズがまだ健在であることを突き止めました。
   • 驚くべき偶然の一致として、チャールズの住所がマーラー氏が出張で滞在していたホテルのわずか2マイル北にあったため、彼は直接チャールズを訪ねることができました。
   • 電話やEメールでの連絡が取れなかったため、マーラー氏は「1964年にUFOに火傷を負ったのはあなたですか？」と直接チャールズに尋ねるという、異例の方法で接触しました。

2. ‌‌チャールズの証言と新たな洞察‌‌:

   • マーラー氏がチャールズとその妻に正式なインタビューを行った結果、チャールズが長年この事件について公に語ろうとしなかったこと、そして妻でさえ詳細を知らなかったことが明らかになりました。
   • チャールズはUFO信者ではなく、ごく普通のビジネスマンであり、長年この事件をホワイトサンズ・ミサイル射場かホロマン空軍基地からの軍事的な何かだと考えていました。
   • しかし、マーラー氏との対話を通じて、チャールズは1964年の技術で彼の動きを模倣し、これほど素早く移動し、8歳の子供を火傷させる理由があるのか疑問を抱き、「筋が通らない」と述べるようになりました。
   • チャールズは、事件当時から痛みを全く感じなかったこと、代わりにひどい痒みに苦しんだことなど、事件の特異な側面を詳細に語りました。

3. ‌‌記録入手の試みと課題‌‌:

   • マーラー氏はFBIに対し、情報公開法（FOIA）に基づいて事件ファイル、研究所の結果、その他の関連情報の開示を求めました。
   • 当初の申請は、第三者が関与しているためプライバシーの問題に抵触するとして却下されました。
   • その後、マーラー氏はチャールズの名前で再申請を試みましたが、さらなる追加情報の提出が必要とされ、チャールズは多忙のため、その後の手続きを進めるか検討中であるとされています。
   • リー総合病院の医療記録についても問い合わせましたが、10年間の保管期間を過ぎていたため、入手は不可能でした。

4. ‌‌未解明な性質の強調‌‌:

   • チャールズの顔に火傷の瘢痕が全く残っていないという驚くべき回復は、調査におけるさらなる謎として強調されています。
   • マーラー氏は、この事件が単なるUFO目撃報告ではなく、物理的な影響と医学的矛盾を伴う、信頼性の高い、しかし未解明なケースであることを繰り返し述べています。
   • チャールズ自身も、55年経っても何が起こったのか、なぜ起こったのか、誰にも答えられないと感じており、「答えがない」と繰り返し語っています。

この事件の調査は、当時の限られた情報と、現代の粘り強い追跡調査が組み合わさることで、その特異な詳細と未解明な側面が浮き彫りになったと言えます。

Charles の視点

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件におけるチャールズの視点に関して、ソースは、彼が‌‌人生を大きく変えるような劇的な経験をした目撃者‌‌であり、長年にわたってその経験を個人的に抱え込んできた普通の人物であることが示されています。

チャールズは、1964年6月2日午後4時頃、ニューメキシコ州ホブスにある祖父母のコインランドリーの裏庭で遊んでいた際、この出来事に遭遇しました。彼は隣の建物の屋根の上から現れた「黒いコマ型」の物体を目撃しました。その物体が自分の存在を認識しているかのように感じ、不安感を覚えたと述べています。彼が左右に動くと、物体も彼の動きを模倣し、まるで追いかけているかのようでした。物体が急接近した際、彼は衝突を予期して目を閉じ、体を固めましたが、物体は彼を通り抜けることなく頭上に留まり、そこから炎を噴き出して彼を包み込みました。

この恐ろしい経験にもかかわらず、チャールズは‌‌炎に包まれた際に痛みは全く感じず‌‌、むしろひどい痒みに苦しんだと証言しています。彼はこの異常な反応をショック状態によるものと考えています。しかし、物体に包まれたとき、「何かがおかしい、非常にまずい」という強い感覚があったことを覚えています。

火傷の程度は非常に深刻でした。髪の毛が燃え、顔からは皮膚が剥がれ落ち、顔全体がひどく腫れ上がり、鼻が見えないほどだったと語っています。黒い煤のようなものが顔に付着し、耳は焼けただれ、「生肉」のようになっていたとも形容しています。一時的に失明し、リー総合病院で火傷専門医から二度または三度熱傷と診断され、1週間入院し、その後も数ヶ月間通院しました。長期的な影響として、右耳の聴力障害と視力低下が残り、事件以来メガネを着用しています。

しかし、チャールズの視点から見て最も謎めいているのは、‌‌今日彼を見ても火傷の痕跡が全く残っていない‌‌ことです。彼自身も、幼い頃に鏡を見て「化け物」のようだと感じたことを記憶していますが、この驚くべき回復は彼にとっても、当時の医師にとっても説明不能な現象でした。

事件後、チャールズは長年にわたってこの経験について公に話すことを避けてきました。彼の妻でさえ、デビッド・マーラー氏が調査に現れるまで詳細を知りませんでした。彼は自身をUFO信者とは考えておらず、ごく普通のビジネスマンとして、この出来事をニューメキシコ州のホワイトサンズ・ミサイル射場かホロマン空軍基地からの‌‌軍事的な試作機‌‌によるものだと長年信じていました。

デビッド・マーラー氏との対話を通じて、チャールズは55年以上ぶりに事件の詳細について深く考えるようになりました。彼は1964年当時の技術で、彼の動きを模倣し、8歳の子供を火傷させるような軍事技術が存在したのか、そしてそのようなことをする理由があったのか、疑問を抱くようになりました。彼は、この事件に対する「答えがない」という無力感を繰り返し表明しています。

当時の捜査に関して、チャールズはホブス警察とFBIの職員が火傷後に病院を訪れたことを鮮明に覚えています。彼はFBIの捜査官の方がホブス警察よりも同情的で、自分の話を聞こうとする姿勢だったと感じていますが、家族はFBIによる分析結果を一切知らされなかったことに不満を感じています。

現在60代半ばになったチャールズは、事件について公に話すことへの抵抗感が薄れているようです。「誰が信じようと信じまいと、もう気にしない」という心境であり、デビッド・マーラー氏が「真実を追求し、この謎の答えを見つけようとしている」ため、彼に協力していると述べています。また、親になったことで、母親が事件時に受けた精神的苦痛について初めて深く考えるようになったとも話しています。

このように、チャールズの視点は、‌‌信じがたい物理的苦痛と謎に満ちた回復を経験し、長年にわたりその経験を胸の内に秘めてきたごく普通の人物‌‌として描かれています。彼は今もなお、何が起こったのか、なぜ起こったのか、明確な答えを見つけられずにいるのです。

他の類似事例

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件のより大きな文脈において、これらのソースは、この事件が‌‌孤立した現象ではない可能性‌‌を示唆しており、‌‌同様の特性を持つ他の類似ケースが存在する‌‌ことに言及しています。

デビッド・マーラー氏は、ホブスでのチャールズの事件の後に発生した他のケースについて語る時間があれば、と述べており、それらのケースが「‌‌驚くべき類似性‌‌」を帯びていると強調しています。

具体的には、以下のケースが挙げられています。

• ‌‌リヴォニア、ジョージア州のビューフォード・パーハム氏のケース‌‌:

  • 1964年6月29日の夜、または技術的には6月30日火曜日の午前1時頃に発生しました。
  • セールスマンのビューフォード・パーハム氏が帰宅中に、‌‌「黒いコマ型」の物体が炎を吐き出し‌‌ながら彼の車に3回接近するのを目撃しました。
  • 物体が車の周りを移動する際、彼は‌‌激しい熱‌‌を感じ、その結果、‌‌腕に火傷を負い、赤くなった‌‌とされています。
  • パーハム氏はこの物体を「空飛ぶコマ」、黒い色、炎を吐き出すものと表現しており、チャールズが描写したものと「‌‌非常に似ている‌‌」とマーラー氏は述べています。
  • チャールズのケースがその約2〜3週間前に発生している点も言及されています。

• ‌‌ジョージア州の複数のケース‌‌:

  • リヴォニアのケースの後、約6〜8週間以内に、‌‌互いに85マイル（約137km）圏内‌‌のジョージア州で‌‌いくつかの他のケース‌‌が発生しました。
  • これらの事件は多くの新聞記事になり、‌‌複数の人々が「黒いコマ型」の物体が炎を吐き出すUFO‌‌を目撃したと述べています。
  • 特筆すべきは、ジョージア州のこれらのケースの多くで、‌‌地元の法執行機関の職員が現場に現れ、UFOを目撃していた‌‌点です。

• ‌‌ジャック・ヴァレ氏の初期の著書に記載されたフランスのケース‌‌:

  • マーラー氏は、ジャック・ヴァレ氏の初期の著書『科学への挑戦（A Challenge to Science）』で語られているケースを見つけたと述べています。
  • このフランスのケースの目撃者は、物体を「‌‌空飛ぶコマ‌‌」と表現しており、そのスケッチをチャールズのスケッチに重ねると‌‌文字通り一致する‌‌ほど、形状や寸法が類似していると説明されています（メートル表記をフィートに換算した場合）。

これらの類似ケースは、1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件が、単発の異常な出来事ではなく、‌‌特定の時期に特定の地域で同様の形状、行動、そして物理的影響（火傷など）を伴う現象が複数報告されていた‌‌という、より広範なパターンの一部である可能性を示唆しています。デビッド・マーラー氏が自身の研究において「データのパターン」を探していると述べているように、これらの類似性は、UFO現象が「調査される必要がある本物の現象」であるという示唆を与えています。

情報源と関連研究

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件のより大きな文脈において、これらのソースは、この事件が‌‌多くの歴史的なUFO事件と同様に、多様な情報源によってその信憑性が裏付けられ、また、より広範なUFO現象のパターンの一部として位置づけられている‌‌ことを示唆しています。デイビッド・マーラー氏の研究は、単一のケースを掘り下げるだけでなく、他の類似事例や過去の研究との関連性を見出すことで、この事件に深みを与えています。

1. 事件の一次情報源と初期調査

この事件に関する情報の多くは、事件発生当初の複数の情報源によって記録されています。

• ‌‌APRO（Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization）‌‌： この事件は、ジムとコラ・ローレンゼンが率いるAPROによって最初に調査されました。APROは、1964年後半の「APRO Bulletin」でこのケースを表紙記事として取り上げ、「ニューメキシコで少年が火傷を負った」という見出しで注目を集めました。マーラー氏がこの事件を最初に知ったのも、この「APRO Bulletin」でした。APROは当時、このケースを「信憑性がある」と判断していました。しかし、その調査は電話によるものに留まり、現場調査は行われませんでした。
• ‌‌ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のアーカイブ‌‌： デイビッド・マーラー氏は、故ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のアーカイブに残された古い音声録音の中から、この事件の証言を見つけ出しました。マクドナルド博士は、1970年代初頭に亡くなるまで、数百人ものUFO目撃者のインタビューを行ってきた大気物理学者であり、UFO現象の科学的調査官として過小評価されているとマーラー氏は述べています。このアーカイブには、事件から約4年後の1968年頃に、火傷を負った少年チャールズとその祖母、母親に対して行われたインタビューの録音が含まれており、生々しい証言が記録されています。
• ‌‌当時の新聞記事‌‌： この事件は、1964年当時、ニューメキシコ州ホブスの地元紙やリー郡の新聞で大々的に報道されました。Lubbock Avalanche紙やOdessa, Texas紙でもチャールズの退院に関する記事が掲載されており、事件後の一週間はほぼ毎日、彼の容態が更新される記事が出ていたとマーラー氏は述べています。これらの記事は、事件が地域社会でいかに大きな注目を集めたかを示しています。
• ‌‌警察およびFBIの記録‌‌： ホブス警察署と連邦捜査局（FBI）もこの事件の調査に関与していました。チャールズ自身も、火傷後に病院でホブス警察とFBIの職員に会ったことを鮮明に覚えていると証言しています。FBIは、祖母のブラウス、チャールズのシャツ、そして彼の顔から剥がれ落ちた皮膚のサンプルを分析のために持ち帰りましたが、家族にはその結果が一切知らされることはありませんでした。マーラー氏は、これらの記録を入手するためにFBIに情報公開法（FOIA）に基づいて申請を試みましたが、プライバシー保護を理由に一度拒否され、現在はチャールズ本人名義で再申請を促しています。ホブス警察や病院の当時の記録は、時間の経過により失われているため、FBIの記録がこの事件に関する唯一の政府文書のソースとなる可能性があります。

2. デイビッド・マーラー氏の研究方法論と貢献

マーラー氏は、このケースのような「古く、忘れ去られた」事件を掘り起こすことの重要性を強調しています。

• ‌‌「信用できるもの」の重視‌‌: マーラー氏は、UFO研究において「新しいもの」よりも「信用できるもの」を重視する姿勢を貫いています。彼は、多くの歴史的なケースは、今日の無数のオンライン報告よりも、当時の新聞記者による現場取材や公的機関による調査によって、より詳細かつ正確に記録されていると主張しています。
• ‌‌未発表の目撃者への追跡調査‌‌: 多くの古いケースが忘れ去られる中で、マーラー氏はチャールズという主要な目撃者がまだ生存している可能性を見出し、粘り強い調査の末に彼を追跡して直接インタビューを行いました。このインタビューを通じて、チャールズが55年以上もの間、この体験について公に語ってこなかったこと、そしてその詳細が彼の妻でさえ知らなかったことが明らかになりました。
• ‌‌広範な資料収集とアーカイブ化‌‌: マーラー氏は、数万点に及ぶ文書、16台の4段ファイルキャビネットを満たすほどの膨大なUFO関連資料を収集しています。彼は、これらの資料をニューメキシコ大学に寄贈し、将来の世代の研究者がUFO現象を歴史の一部として客観的に調査できるよう、アーカイブ化を進めています。

3. 関連する類似ケースと研究

マーラー氏は、チャールズのケースが孤立した現象ではないことを示す、‌‌「驚くべき類似性」を持つ他の事例‌‌にも言及しています。

• ‌‌ジョージア州リヴォニアのビューフォード・パーハム氏のケース‌‌: 1964年6月29日の夜（技術的には6月30日火曜日の午前1時頃）、チャールズの事件のわずか2～3週間後に発生しました。セールスマンのパーハム氏は、帰宅中に「黒いコマ型」の物体が炎を吐き出しながら自身の車に3度接近するのを目撃し、その際に腕に火傷を負いました。パーハム氏が描写した物体の形状や特徴は、チャールズの証言と「非常に似ている」とされています。
• ‌‌ジョージア州の複数のケース‌‌: リヴォニアのケースの後、約6～8週間以内に、互いに85マイル（約137km）圏内のジョージア州で同様の事件が複数報告されました。これらの事件では、複数の目撃者が「黒いコマ型」の物体が炎を吐き出すUFOを目撃したと証言し、その多くには地元の法執行機関の職員も関与していました。
• ‌‌ジャック・ヴァレ氏の著書に記載されたフランスのケース‌‌: マーラー氏は、UFO研究者ジャック・ヴァレ氏の初期の著書『科学への挑戦（A Challenge to Science）』に、チャールズが描写した物体と「文字通り一致する」形状と寸法を持つ「空飛ぶコマ」の目撃例が記録されていることを発見しました。
• ‌‌ジョン・シュエスラー氏の生理学的ケースレポート‌‌: MUFONの元国際ディレクターであるジョン・シュエスラー氏は、火傷被害者や放射線、電磁効果を伴うUFO事件をまとめた生理学的ケースレポートを執筆しており、この中でAPRO Bulletinに言及しながらチャールズのケースにも触れています。

これらの情報源と関連研究は、1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件が、‌‌単なる個人的な体験としてではなく、特定の時期に特定の地域で発生した、特定の物理的特性と影響（特に火傷）を伴うUFO現象のパターンの一部‌‌として捉えられ、深く調査されるべき「本物の現象」であることを示唆しています。マーラー氏は、これらのパターンや相関関係をデータの中から見つけ出すことが、自身の研究の核心であると述べています。

UFO 現象の考察

AI

1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件のより大きな文脈において、これらのソースはUFO現象そのものの性質、その研究における課題、そして現象が目撃者や社会に与える影響について、多角的な考察を提供しています。特にデイビッド・マーラー氏のアプローチは、この「忘れられた」事件を現代のUFO現象の議論に再統合する上で重要な意味を持っています。

1. UFO現象の物理的特性と異常な影響

この事件は、UFO現象が単なる視覚的な目撃に留まらず、‌‌具体的な物理的影響‌‌を伴う可能性を示唆しています。

• ‌‌物体の特徴‌‌: 事件のUFOは、チャールズの証言によれば、「黒いコマ型」をしており、幅約2～3フィート、高さ5～6フィートと比較的小さな物体でした。この物体は火を噴き出し、チャールズの頭上約1フィートの高さでホバリングし、彼を炎で包み込みました。
• ‌‌物理的相互作用‌‌: チャールズは、物体が彼の動きを模倣し（左右に動くと物体も追随）、隠れようとすると、その動きを模倣し続けたと証言しています。その後、物体は一瞬のうちに彼に急接近し、まるで衝突するかのように感じられたといいます。この相互作用は、物体がチャールズの存在を認識しているかのような「相互認識」を示唆しています。
• ‌‌火傷と奇妙な回復‌‌: チャールズは第2度および第3度の火傷を顔に負い、髪の毛も燃え、耳は「生肉のよう」になり、一時的に失明しました。顔には黒い煤のようなものが付着していました。しかし、最も驚くべきは、‌‌火傷の激しさにもかかわらずチャールズはほとんど痛みを感じず、56年経った今では顔に一切傷跡が残っていない‌‌ことです。耳も元通りになっています。この痛みのなさや驚くべき回復力は、従来の燃焼による火傷とは異なる、‌‌UFO現象特有の生理学的影響‌‌である可能性を示唆しています。ジョン・シュエスラー氏が火傷被害者や放射線、電磁効果を伴うUFO事件の生理学的ケースレポートを執筆していることからも、このような現象がUFO研究において注目されていることが分かります。
• ‌‌その他の物理的兆候‌‌: 祖母は「シューッ」という音や「ゴーッ」という音を聞いたと証言し、チャールズも体が包み込まれた際に空気の欠乏を感じたようです。警察の現場検証では、地表に燃焼の痕跡が見当たらず、乾燥したカリチェ土壌のため燃えるものがなかったとされました。

2. UFO現象の研究における課題とマーラー氏のアプローチ

マーラー氏は、この事件の調査を通じて、UFO現象の‌‌信頼性の評価と研究方法論‌‌に重要な考察を加えています。

• ‌‌信頼性の重視‌‌: マーラー氏は、UFO研究において「新しい情報」よりも‌‌「信頼できる情報」‌‌を重視する姿勢を強調しています。現代のインターネット上には多くのUFO報告があるものの、信頼性が低いものが多いため、過去の歴史的ケース、特に当時の新聞記者による現場取材や公的機関による調査が行われたケースの方が、多くの場合、より詳細で正確に記録されていると主張しています。
• ‌‌懐疑的なアプローチの必要性‌‌: 彼は、UFOビデオに対して「すべてのUFOビデオは、証明されるまではフェイクである」（有罪推定）というスタンスをとるべきだと主張しており、デジタル操作の可能性が高い現代において、感情に流されず、‌‌知的かつ冷静な分析‌‌が必要であると述べています。
• ‌‌情報源の裏付け‌‌: マーラー氏は、今回の事件のように、当時の新聞記事、警察記録、FBI記録といった‌‌信頼性のある文書‌‌によって裏付けられるストーリーを重視しています。このアプローチは、UFO研究に学術的な厳密性をもたらそうとする彼の試みの一環であり、彼がニューメキシコ大学にUFO関連資料を寄贈し、将来の研究のためにアーカイブ化を進めている理由でもあります。
• ‌‌忘れ去られたケースの再調査‌‌: 彼は、長年忘れ去られていたチャールズのケースのような古い事例を掘り起こし、生存する目撃者を追跡調査することの重要性を強調しています。目撃者が公に語ることをためらう場合でも、時間の経過とともに心理的に整理され、話す準備が整うことがあると指摘しています。

3. UFO現象のパターンとより大きな文脈

チャールズの事件は、孤立した特異な出来事ではなく、‌‌より広範なUFO現象のパターンの一部‌‌である可能性が示唆されています。

• ‌‌類似ケースとの相関‌‌: マーラー氏は、チャールズが目撃した「黒いコマ型で火を噴く」物体と‌‌「驚くべき類似性」‌‌を持つ他のケースを複数発見しています。
  • 1964年6月29日、チャールズの事件からわずか数週間後にジョージア州リヴォニアで発生したビューフォード・パーハム氏のケースでは、同様の「黒いコマ型」の物体が火を噴き、彼の腕に火傷を負わせました。
  • その後の数週間で、ジョージア州の85マイル圏内で同様の「黒いコマ型」のUFOが火を噴く目撃例が複数報告されており、中には地元の法執行機関の職員も関与していました。
  • ジャック・ヴァレ氏の初期の著書『科学への挑戦』にも、チャールズが描写した物体と「文字通り一致する」形状と寸法の「空飛ぶコマ」の目撃例（フランスのケース）が記録されています。
• ‌‌「本物の現象」の示唆‌‌: マーラー氏は、データの中にこうした「パターンや相関関係」を見出すことが自身の研究の核心であると述べ、これらのパターンは、私たちが‌‌「本物の現象」‌‌に直面していることを示唆している、と結論付けています。

4. UFO現象に対する個人の反応と社会の対応

この事件は、UFO現象が目撃者に与える‌‌心理的・社会的影響‌‌についても洞察を提供しています。

• ‌‌目撃者の沈黙と感情‌‌: チャールズは事件後、55年もの間、この体験について公に語ることを避けてきました。彼の妻でさえ、マーラー氏が訪れるまで詳細を知りませんでした。これは、UFO体験が目撃者にとってトラウマとなり、嘲笑や不信の対象となることを恐れて沈黙を選ぶ傾向があることを示唆しています。チャールズは、大人になって初めて、この事件が母親に与えた感情的な影響について深く考えるようになったと語っています。
• ‌‌「普通の」人々の体験‌‌: チャールズは、UFO信者でも懐疑論者でもない「ごく普通のビジネスマン」であり、UFOは彼の「世界の一部ではなかった」とマーラー氏は強調しています。彼が軍事的な説明を模索したことは、異星人の宇宙船という考えをすぐに受け入れなかった彼の現実的な姿勢を示しています。
• ‌‌政府の関与と情報公開の壁‌‌: 事件当時、ホブス警察とFBIが調査に関与し、チャールズの衣類や皮膚サンプルを分析のために持ち帰りましたが、家族には結果が一切知らされませんでした。マーラー氏はFBIに情報公開法（FOIA）に基づいて記録の開示を求めていますが、プライバシー問題を理由に拒否され、目撃者本人による再申請が必要となっています。これは、UFO現象に関する政府の調査が一般に公開されにくいという長年の課題を浮き彫りにしています。

これらの考察は、1964年ニューメキシコUFO火傷被害者事件が、単なる興味深い物語ではなく、UFO現象の性質、その研究方法、そして人間の経験と解釈の複雑さについて、深く考えるための重要なケーススタディであることを示しています。

時系列

AI

• 1941年：ケープジラードUFO墜落事件とされる出来事が起こる。しかし、デイビッド・マーラーは現代の新聞記事などの具体的な証拠がないため、これを「都市伝説」と見なしている。

• 1942年2月：ロサンゼルスの戦いが発生。デイビッド・マーラーの研究対象の一つ。

• 1947年：UFOの記録が始まり、ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士がUFO目撃者の聞き取り調査を開始する年。

• 1950年：ファーミントン・フライング・ソーサー・アーマダに関する調査が行われる。また、この年に「空飛ぶ三角形」に関する初期の新聞記事が発見される。

• 1950年代～1960年代：プロジェクト・ブルーブックのファイルに、ブーメラン型UFOの詳細な記述が残される。

• 1964年6月2日（火曜日）午後4時頃：

  • ニューメキシコ州ホッブスのコインランドリーの裏庭で、当時8歳のチャールズが黒いコマ型オブジェクトに遭遇。
  • オブジェクトはチャールズの動きを模倣した後、彼の上に急降下し、火柱を噴き出してチャールズに重度の火傷を負わせる。
  • チャールズの祖母であるスミス夫人がこの出来事を目撃し、火傷を負ったチャールズを助けに駆け寄る。
  • コインランドリーにいた看護師と祖父も状況を助け、チャールズはすぐにリー総合病院に搬送される。
  • 救急処置室で火傷専門医のバジャー博士がチャールズを治療。チャールズは2度・3度の火傷と診断され、約1週間入院し、その後数ヶ月間は通院を続ける。
  • ホッブス警察署が事件を捜査し、当初はマッチ遊び、スチーム、燃える糸くずなどが原因の可能性を探るが、証拠は見つからず。
  • FBIが捜査に加わり、チャールズのシャツ、祖母のブラウス、皮膚の掻き取りサンプルを分析のために研究所に送る。しかし、家族には結果は伝えられない。
  • 地元の新聞（ホッブスとリー郡の新聞、ルボック・アバランチ、オデッサ・テキサスの新聞など）が事件を連日報じる。

• 1964年後半：APRO（Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization）がこの事件を「APRO Bulletin」の表紙記事として取り上げ、この事件を信頼できるものと判断する。

• 1964年6月29日（月曜日深夜/火曜日未明）：ジョージア州リボニアで、セールスマンのビュフォード・パーハムが黒いコマ型オブジェクトに遭遇し、火傷を負う。

• 1964年6月から8月にかけての数週間：ジョージア州の半径85マイル以内で、同様の黒いコマ型UFOが火を噴いているという複数の目撃情報が報告され、多くの新聞記事になる。これらのケースには地元の法執行機関もUFOを目撃しているものも含まれる。

• 1968年頃：ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士が、チャールズの祖母（スミス夫人）と母親、そして当時12歳（会話中で9歳と言い間違えている）だったチャールズ本人に聞き取り調査を行う。この時の音声記録が残る。

• 1970年：フェイト・マガジンやナショナル・エンクワイアラーでもこの事件が取り上げられる。

• 1970年代初頭：ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士が死去。

• 1990年代：デイビッド・マーラーがラリー・ハッチと交流。

• 2012年：マーティン・ウィリスとペギーの間の最初のメールのやり取りがあった年。

• 2019年秋：デイビッド・マーラーがジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のアーカイブ音源からチャールズの事件を発見し、ニューメキシコでチャールズの行方を追跡。

• 2019年秋：デイビッド・マーラーがチャールズを訪問し、正式なインタビューを実施。チャールズとその妻は、このとき初めて詳細について話し合う。

• 2019年12月：デイビッド・マーラーがFBIにFOIA（情報公開法）申請を行うが、第三者情報であることを理由に拒否される。

• 2019年12月以降：チャールズ自身の名前で再度FBIにFOIA申請が行われる。

• 2020年3月3日（スーパーチューズデー）：

  • マーティン・ウィリスのポッドキャスト「UFO火傷被害者の失われた記録: 1964年のUFO火傷被害者事件」にデイビッド・マーラーが出演し、チャールズの事件について初めて公に語る。
  • 番組では、チャールズの祖母、母親、チャールズ自身の1968年のジェームズ・マクドナルドによるインタビュー音声クリップが再生される（技術的な問題により一部再生不可）。
  • 番組終了後、チャールズ・デイビス本人による2019年秋のインタビュー動画クリップの音声が公開される。

• 2020年4月10日～12日：オザークマウンテンUFOカンファレンスでデイビッド・マーラーが事件について発表予定。

• 2020年4月24日～25日：MUFONペンシルベニア会議でデイビッド・マーラーが事件について発表予定。

• 2020年10月：ノバスコシア州シャグハーバーでデイビッド・マーラーが講演予定。

• 不明（最近）：ラリー・ハッチが死去し、彼の研究資料がデイビッド・マーラーに寄贈され、最終的にニューメキシコ大学に寄贈される予定。

• 不明（最近）：デイビッド・マーラーがニューメキシコ大学でUFOを歴史の一部として保存することの重要性について講演。

• 不明（最近）：クリス・メロンがデイビッド・マーラーの研究室を訪れ、三角UFO現象について議論する。これはHistory Channelの「Unidentified」シーズン2エピソード2で放送予定。

主要関係者

AI

• デイビッド・マーラー (David Marler)： UFO研究家、作家。特に三角UFOの研究で知られ、著書に「Triangle UFOs, An Estimate of the Situation」がある。古いUFO事件の信憑性を重視し、詳細な調査を行うことで知られる。ジェームズ・マクドナルドのアーカイブからホッブスの火傷事件を発掘し、主要な証人であるチャールズを追跡してインタビューを行った。彼のUFO関連のコレクションはニューメキシコ大学に寄贈され、将来の研究のために保存される予定。

• マーティン・ウィリス (Martin Willis)： ポッドキャスト「UFO火傷被害者の失われた記録」のホスト。デイビッド・マーラーの長年の仕事ぶりを高く評価し、彼の番組でホッブスの事件を初めて公に紹介した。

• チャールズ (Charles Keith Davis)： 1964年6月2日にニューメキシコ州ホッブスでUFOによる火傷被害に遭った当時8歳の少年。現在の年齢は60代半ば。事件後56年間、公に事件について語ることはなかったが、デイビッド・マーラーの訪問をきっかけに詳細を明かした。UFOを信じるタイプではなく、軍事的な何かだったと考えていたが、デイビッドとの対話を通じて疑問を持つようになる。現在も火傷の後遺症として右耳の聴力低下と視力低下（眼鏡着用）があるものの、顔には scarring はない。家族はペンテコステ派の敬虔なクリスチャンであり、利益を得るために話をでっち上げたわけではないと強調されている。

• スミス夫人 (Mrs. Smith) （チャールズの祖母）： 1964年の事件時、コインランドリーの裏口近くでチャールズが火傷を負う様子を目撃した主要な証人。オブジェクトがチャールズの頭上1フィートにホバリングし、火を噴き出していたと証言した。ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のインタビュー記録が残っている。

• チャールズの母親： 事件後、息子が火傷を負ったという電話を受け、その日の夜に病院で息子の姿を見て「テレビに出てくるモンスターのようだった」と表現した。ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士のインタビュー記録が残っている。

• チャールズの祖父： 事件発生時に車でコインランドリーに到着し、すぐにチャールズを病院に搬送した。

• バジャー博士 (Dr. Badger)： リー総合病院の救急処置室にいた火傷専門医。ルボック・テキサスから巡回に来ていた。チャールズの火傷を2度・3度と診断し、治療にあたった。火傷の原因に困惑していたとされる。

• ジェームズ・マクドナルド博士 (Dr. James McDonald)： 大気物理学者でアリゾナ大学の教授。1970年代初頭に死去。UFO研究における科学的調査の先駆者として知られ、1960年代半ばから後半にかけて数百人のUFO目撃者にインタビューを行った。ホッブスの事件についても1968年頃にチャールズの祖母、母親、チャールズ本人に聞き取り調査を行っており、その貴重な音声記録がデイビッド・マーラーの研究の起点となった。

• ラリー・ハッチ (Larry Hatch)： 1990年代に優れたUFOデータベースプログラムを開発した人物。約1年半前に死去。彼の研究資料はデイビッド・マーラーに寄贈され、ニューメキシコ大学に保管される予定。

• ジョン・シューエスラー (John Schuessler)： MUFONの元国際ディレクター。生理学的ケースレポートで火傷被害や放射線、電磁効果を伴うUFO事件を記録しており、ホッブスの事件にも簡潔に言及している。

• クリス・メロン (Chris Mellon)： 「Unidentified」というテレビ番組に出演している人物。UFO現象、特に三角UFOに強い関心を持つ。デイビッド・マーラーの研究室を訪れ、三角UFO現象について議論した。海軍パイロットによるUAPの合法性を検証する彼のグループの活動は、UFOに関する政府の姿勢に影響を与えている。

• ペギー (Peggy)： マーティン・ウィリスのFacebookページの運営を手伝っている人物。

• チャールズ・リア (Charles Lear)： ニューヨーク在住のブロガー。podcastufo.comでブログを執筆している。

• ランドール・ニッカーソン (Randall Nickerson)： 「アリエル現象 (Ariel Phenomenon)」という映画の制作者。

• ジェームズ・フォックス (James Fox)： 「ザ・フェノメノン (The Phenomenon)」という映画の制作者。

• マーク・ダントニオ (Mark D'Antonio)： ビデオグラフィックス、ビデオイメージ、ビデオ編集の専門家。デイビッド・マーラーがUFO動画の分析を依頼する専門家の一人。

情報源

動画(1:49:09) 03-03-2020 David Marler, Forgotten 1964 UFO Burn Victim Case

動画付属概要欄

5,400 views Streamed live on Mar 4, 2020 PodcastUFO Live Show

文字起こし（話者識別）

展開

（以下は "03-03-2020 David Marler, Forgotten 1964 UFO Burn Victim Case" と題された podcast の文字起こし（話者識別）です。）

[Martin Willis] : Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis, your host. And how fitting, tonight is Super Tuesday. And with a guest like Dave Marler, it's Super Tuesday here as well. I hope there are great researchers in the future like David is. He's kind of a dying breed. He gets really deep into whatever he's investigating. And for people that are new paying attention to this subject, pay attention to whatever David Marler has to say, in my opinion. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just suggesting. (00:01:16)

[Martin Willis] : For instance, there's no one in the entire planet that has done the job with the Triangle UFOs that David has done. It's a stellar book. I have it. I suggest, if you have an interest, to go out and get it. It's called Triangle UFOs, An Estimate of the Situation. And it's, well, it's as good as it gets on that type of investigation. And very, very interesting. I learned so much from reading that book. (00:01:50)

[Martin Willis] : Well, Dave's focus has turned to a very interesting case. And that is the topic we are going to talk about that. And we're going to be playing some audio clips. And we're going to play, actually, after a break, we're going to play a video clip for those people over on YouTube. But don't worry, the podcaster will still get to listen to audio on that. And this was a case that happened. (00:02:15)

[Martin Willis] : It's an unknown case, kind of lost in time. And David dug it out of time, 50 some odd years ago. This happened back in 1964 in New Mexico. And it's incredibly credible. I have... David has shared some things with me. And so I'm real, real excited about tonight's show, Super Tuesday Show. So I want to thank everyone that helps out with the show. There's people that help out with support. I really do appreciate that. (00:02:47)

[Martin Willis] : And there's a lot of people behind the scenes as well. And I want to thank Peggy as well. She helps out with the Facebook page. I think she's been doing it six years or something like that. I looked the other day and our first email back and forth was 2012. So she's been at this a long time. And next month, we're going to have our 400th show. Yes, that's right, 400th show on this. (00:03:13)

[Martin Willis] : We'll do a little celebration of some kind when that happens. I do appreciate every listener to the show. And again, I do appreciate the supporters. Anyone can help out if you're not helping out. We have a Patreon page and that information is right on our website. So check that out. We also have a blog as we do every week from Charles Lear. He's down in New York. He writes blogs for us, does a wonderful job. (00:03:42)

[Martin Willis] : I love this week's blog. It's called When UFOs Were Flying Saucers. And check that out. He's got a lot of information. And in his blogs also, he links to things that he is writing about in the articles. So that's on podcastufo.com. And the link to this YouTube channel is on there. For those of you who are not on YouTube, you can check it out sometime. There's also how to subscribe to listen to the podcast in your media player. (00:04:16)

[Martin Willis] : And again, everything is on the website, Stitcher, you name it. All that information is there. And we also have a banner up for the Ariel phenomenon. I'm going to be meeting up with Randall Nickerson soon and find out what the heck's going on with that film. I can't wait for that to come out. There's going to be a lot of really great films coming out this year, including James Fox, The Phenomenon, and too bad they both have a similar name, Ariel Phenomenon. I don't think you're going to get them confused though. (00:04:47)

[Martin Willis] : So with all of that, I think I was going to talk a little bit about UFO news, but you know what? We're going to have a jam-packed show with our guest tonight. So I don't want to take any more time. David, welcome to the show. (00:04:59)

[David Marler] : Thank you, Martin. It's great to be here again. I'm very excited about tonight's discussion. And as I think I mentioned to you offline, this is my first time publicly discussing this case anywhere. That's right. I meant to say that. I meant to make more of a big deal of that part of it. Well, it's it truly is an exclusive for UFO podcast in that respect. And so I've shared some information, as you alluded to, to the audience regarding this case, just to kind of give you a flavor of what it entails. (00:05:30)

[David Marler] : And to your point, we do have a lot of material to cover. Before we get into it, though, I always like to take a step back and I'll be mentioning this in some upcoming conferences where I'll be presenting this in April. A lot of people I've noticed online will comment with regard to maybe my Farmington Flying Saucer Armada research from 1950 or the Battle of L.A. from February 1942. Well, why are we talking about these old cases? (00:05:55)

[David Marler] : And the question I often get asked, and I'm sure you do as well, is what's new? Well, my attitude is I don't care what's new. I care what's credible. And new does not necessarily equate with credible. In fact, I would argue many of the historic cases were better documented than what we're receiving today. And by that, I mean when you have newspapers and news reporters going out to the homes of the eyewitnesses, it doesn't necessarily confirm the veracity of their claims. But at least the investigators and the researchers from that time did their due diligence, went to the person's home, established they are who they claim they are. (00:06:36)

[David Marler] : Today, you know, we have these ubiquitous UFO reports being filed by UFOBob at Yahoo.com. And we don't even know who that is. And in most cases, the researchers, even though they're well-meaning, they don't have the resources to try to track down who that was that posted that on whatever website you might find it. And so looking at these historic cases, I think it's very important because, as I mentioned, they seem to be more credible in many respects, especially when, as we're going to see in the case we're going to discuss this evening, this Hobbs, New Mexico case, where we not only have the sighting of a light in the sky, as most UFO reports are, we have the sighting of a structured object during daylight hours, but more specifically, a structured object during daylight hours that physically burned and severely injured an eight-year-old boy. (00:07:26)

[David Marler] : And what's interesting about this case is the fact that, after 56 years, this witness has never come forward publicly other than the initial media attention that it garnered at the time. And even then, as you alluded to in the introduction, there was very minimal UFO research done. This case was originally investigated by the APRO organization, or Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization, headed up by Jim and Cora Lorenzen. But based on my research, the extent of their investigation into the case consisted of just phone calls, not even on-site investigation. (00:08:00)

[David Marler] : And in addition, before we delve into it to whet the appetite of the audience, this was also investigated and documented thoroughly in the newspapers from the time by the Hobbs, New Mexico Police Department, and in point of fact, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI was involved in this investigation. So we know something happened, but after 56 years, we're still trying to wrestle with what. And then as we get into the discussion this evening, again, whetting the appetite of the audience, we'll talk about Hobbs, but then hopefully we'll have time to talk about other cases that happen in the wake of Hobbs that bear striking similarities. (00:08:38)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah. Dave, you just mentioned about UFO Bob, for instance. And I got caught up, just want to tell you a situation. I think I mentioned this on a prior show, but I got caught up a little bit with everyone sending me this video and information about, it was on YouTube, and it looked like a pretty darn good UFO video. And in the video copy, it said hundreds of witnesses. Okay. There was no other video and there was no other, there was no connection to those witnesses. (00:09:18)

[Martin Willis] : So why, I mean, I think that was a mistake of the person that was putting up. And I want to say it was a hoax. It was a CGI hoax. It was a good one. But that was the mistake of the person is talking about the hundreds of witnesses. I mean, that makes it, it does cut with a lot of people because they won't go any deeper than that. And they'll just read it and say, wow, what a sighting, you know? (00:09:40)

[Martin Willis] : So you have to be careful. Yeah. (00:09:42)

[David Marler] : I get UFO videos emailed to me all the time. People asking, have you seen this? Have you seen that? Right. And I think the one thing that we need to do, if we're really going to take the subject seriously, and then some people admittedly, they look at UFOs as entertainment. It's just a fun thing that they follow. And that's great. But for serious researchers, I think we need to curb our hearts and allow our minds to move forward when we look at things like this, because the videos, they have a visceral reaction, you get excited, you're like, oh, wow, that's amazing. You have to curb your emotions and approach it from an intellectual standpoint, and really try to analyze it. (00:10:17)

[David Marler] : Because if we just went with our emotions, where would this field be? And I really try to inject some sobriety, if you will, to the subject matter, and try to maintain a well grounded approach. My attitude is every UFO video is a hoax until proven otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent. Well, unfortunately, that's the case. And people say with technology today, we have all these UFO videos. Well, that's true. But technology is a double edged sword. (00:10:45)

[David Marler] : Yes, we can capture more today. But we also have much greater tools in the way of digital manipulation. And people send them to me and I thank them for that. But I defer to the video experts, the Mark D'Antonio's of the world, people that know video graphics, video imagery, and video doctoring. I can look at it, but I don't have an expert opinion in that area. So I defer to the experts. (00:11:10)

[David Marler] : So I usually will forward those videos on. And, you know, quite often though, I get asked, what do you think of this latest video? Personally, I don't have the free time to look at every YouTube UFO video. And touching on what you alluded to, Martin, there are active groups dedicated to putting out fake UFO videos. That's why they're there, is to just disseminate disinformation. And it's so funny, people within the UFO community, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists and they blame the government for spreading disinformation. Your average citizens are out there hoaxing and perpetrating hoaxes and throwing them out on the internet. (00:11:47)

[David Marler] : I've seen more in the way of civilians disseminating false information than the government. Oh, sure. (00:11:53)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. I have mentioned a couple of channels on this. And it's amazing, there are some real backers, some people really behind those people. And I get some mail, I'll tell you, and comments, you know, on YouTube. I always get lots of those, and I just ignore those. So if someone's gonna make those nasty comments, if they're too nasty, and I happen to see it, I'll take it down. But I'm just ignoring you. (00:12:22)

[Martin Willis] : Okay. (00:12:22)

[David Marler] : But I think it gets back to what we're going to be talking about tonight. There are dramatic, fascinating cases that have not been investigated, but have the backing of legitimate documents in the form of newspaper articles from the time, police records, FBI records, things of that nature that can back up a story. You're not just taking one individual at their word. And but obviously, we'll get into that a little bit more during the course of the show. (00:12:50)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah, let's go ahead and why don't we jump right in and talk about this situation. We got about 11 minutes before our first break. So why don't we go ahead and just tell the listening audience again, you probably never heard of this one. And it's a good one. I'm really happy that you're sharing this. And I was able to get a sneak preview. It's good. (00:13:15)

[Martin Willis] : Absolutely. (00:13:15)

[David Marler] : Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think I need to set the stage in the sense that I was going through some old audio recordings from the James McDonald archives. And for anyone that doesn't know Dr. James McDonald, I would urge you strongly, please Google him and look at the work that he's done prior to his death in the early 70s. People quite often, you know, evoke J. Allen Hynek's name. But I feel that James McDonald was really, you know, underrated as far as an investigator and a scientific investigator at that. (00:13:47)

[David Marler] : He was an atmospheric physicist who taught at the University of Arizona in Tucson, which is where his UFO archives reside. And going through some of those old recordings, which have been digitized and preserved, he had interviewed hundreds of UFO witnesses going back to 1947. And he made most of these during the mid to late 60s. As I mentioned to you, Martin, previously, I was driving and listening to these old audio recordings during the course of my previous job where I used to travel extensively throughout the Southwest. And I started listening to these recordings, and we're going to share some of these clips when we come back from the break with the audience. (00:14:25)

[David Marler] : And I'm listening to this case, and I suddenly remember out of all the thousands of cases I reviewed, this reminded me of a case that I read about in the APRO Bulletin. And I don't know if we have that, that we could pull up that image that we have, but I think we have the article. All you have to do is give me the number and I will, I will pull that up. (00:14:45)

[Martin Willis] : That would be number eight. All right, so here is number eight. And okay, that's, I just want to say this for, these are for the people in YouTube. We'll try to make this as painless as possible if you're listening to the podcast. But that's why we numbered the images. So anyway, so go ahead. (00:15:03)

[David Marler] : Well, this is where I first read about this case. This was the cover story of the APRO Bulletin back in late 1964. And obviously the headline captures your attention, you know, boy burned in New Mexico. And I thought that was rather interesting. But at the time when I first read that APRO Bulletin, I was living in St. Louis. So there wasn't much I could do living, you know, in the Midwest, and this occurred way down in the Southwest. But now living in New Mexico, where I reside, I decided that given the fact that APRO investigated it, and I might add, deemed it credible at the time, seemingly credible. (00:15:39)

[David Marler] : And then now, armed with the audio recordings from James McDonald's archives, I decided to try to track down this witness. A lot of these old cases, people relegate to the dustbin. But when you think about it, 1964, eight-year-old child, do the math. It's quite possible this witness was still in fact alive and kicking. And let's just say, for the sake of time, after an exhaustive effort, I was able to track down and establish that this witness was still alive. (00:16:10)

[Martin Willis] : Can we just get... I'm sorry, Dave, pardon me for interrupting you. But I just want you to tell the story you told me, and we got plenty of time on how you tracked him down. And we won't use real names. (00:16:23)

[David Marler] : Absolutely. As I was listening to these audio recordings, when I stumbled across these specific recordings on this case, I was driving to a city in the Southwest, as part of my territory that I covered at the time. And I got into my hotel that night, and I decided to try to do some exhaustive research, try to track down, see if this person was still alive. After a number of stumbling blocks late into the night, I finally think I established the individual and found out where he lived. Ironically enough, the address that popped up was the same city that I had traveled to for business that day. (00:17:03)

[David Marler] : And in fact, the hotel I was staying at, according to the maps that I drew up, the address that was giving me for where this gentleman lived was two miles north of my hotel. Yeah, amazing. Synchronicities. It's synchronicity. And between the hotel and his home was the hospital that I was going to be doing business with the next day. So I literally drove one mile down the road the next morning to do my job. And once I had concluded that, I drove another mile down the same road, and I was in this person's front yard. (00:17:37)

[David Marler] : And in this day and age, I don't typically do this. But unfortunately, the numbers, the phone numbers that I had tracked down were all invalid. So I was left with the task, and I didn't have an email address. So I was left with the task of literally showing up unannounced on this gentleman's doorstep, knocking on his door and asking him, were you burned by a UFO back in 1964? So you can imagine how nervous I was in doing that, especially if I had the wrong person. (00:18:03)

[David Marler] : But long story short, I knocked on the door, a gentleman answered the door, and he kind of gave me this look like, oh my god, yes, I'm that individual. And we wound up scheduling about a half hour to 45 minutes to have a conversation. And later, I followed up with the individual and did a more formal interview. And I must say that there's been ongoing dialogue over the last several months, not only with the witness, but his wife, who I might add, did not even know the details of this case until I showed up with my wife to do the formal interview. And for years, she used to ask him, because he had alluded to it, and she would ask him, and his name's Charles, Charles, do you want to talk about that incident in 64? And he would always respond with, and she told me this herself, nope, I don't want to talk about it. (00:18:54)

[David Marler] : There's no need to talk about it. Don't want to talk about it. And I have to emphasize, before we get into the details of the case, this gentleman is as far from a UFO believer as possible. I wouldn't label him a skeptic. I wouldn't label him a believer. He's an average gentleman who is a businessman, who has about as normal of a life as you could imagine. UFOs is not part of his world, although in 1964, it broke through into his reality with this case that we're going to be talking about. (00:19:24)

[Martin Willis] : Right, right. Just to set the scene, because the people in the podcast don't know this, but we're in your library. And first of all, I want to say you have some type of strange light coming through that's going like right into, right on your forehead and into your eyes. It's the angle of the sun. But for the person that can actually see this on YouTube, what we're looking at, and you can look at this, this is your UFO library. Look at all those bookcases. (00:19:52)

[Martin Willis] : Well, we can see right now all the filing cabinets. Yes. And by the way, my painting's right in the very background, the one I sent you. It's a mountain with a UFO flying over it. Anyway, if you had to guess how many documents you have housed there right now, have you ever thought of that? (00:20:13)

[David Marler] : Oh, documents. I mean, if you use that in a general term, as far as newsletters, reports, things of that nature, I would say probably tens of thousands. The only thing I can tell you definitively is there's 16 four-drawer file cabinets full. And then there's also bins on top because I'm literally running out of space here. And in fact, in two weeks, I'll be acquiring a new collection of research from Larry Hatch's family. Larry Hatch passed away about a year and a half ago. (00:20:42)

[David Marler] : He wrote one of the best UFO database programs back in the 90s. And I corresponded with him back in 93, 94, 95 timeframe. But after he passed away, I wrote a tribute article to him. And the family is interested in donating his research materials here, which will ultimately go to the University of New Mexico, which will survive for future generations of researchers. (00:21:05)

[Martin Willis] : That's right. And I'm sorry for taking this, Jack, for the listener that's dying to hear about this UFO case and what happened. But we only have a couple minutes before we're going into the first break. So if you would, since we're on this jag right now, just finish off. The University of New Mexico is eventually going to house and care for these items. And do you still have the, not the GoFundMe, but whatever the page that you had up, is that still active? (00:21:33)

[David Marler] : Yes, the GoFundMe site is active. It can be reached through my website, davidmarlerufo.com, www.davidmarlerufo.com. And it's on the main page. There is a link there that talks a little bit about that. And in fact, you'll see the legal deed of gift to UNM on there as well. And I talk about that. And in fact, I've even lectured at UNM. Once I approached them and told them about the collection I had, and I've met with the dean of library, library science, the director of the Southwest Special Collections Group. If you have an educated discourse on the UFO subject, and you avoid conspiracy tales and belief systems, and you focus solely on the facts, these people are interested in learning more about it. (00:22:19)

[David Marler] : And that's exactly how I approached it. And I state that whether you relegate UFOs to fact fiction or folklore, can we agree as part of our history? And as any other aspect of history, shouldn't we preserve that? And they completely, unanimously agreed. And subsequent to that initial discussion and dialogue, once they learned about my methodology, and how I cite my resources, which a lot of researchers, unfortunately, in this field don't do, cite your sources, where are you getting this information? When I show them it's coming through credible sources, newspapers, government documents, they invited me to speak at UNM a couple years ago, and was able to speak in the hallowed halls of academia on the UFO subject, which was truly an honor. (00:23:00)

[Martin Willis] : Excellent, wow. And this site will, I mean, this university is going to be taking care of, archivally taking care of these for researchers, for on and on and on. I think it's a wonderful thing you're doing, and it just gives more confidence to someone that is considering, you know, donating some things to you. And again, I apologize to the listener for not going diving right into this case, but we've got plenty of time for that. And we are going to be coming right back, right after this break. (00:23:36)

[Martin Willis] : I am taking a true break, and when I do, we have to test out our audio and stuff for that, for the clips that are going to be coming up. So yeah, we'll get into the story and the clips right after this break. So hang on everyone, we'll be right back, right about three or four minutes, right after these messages. All right, welcome back to the show. I have to tell you something, and that is, it must be a conspiracy, Dave, because I tell you what, technical things seem to happen around these shows. (00:24:14)

[Martin Willis] : I can make a real conspiracy theory out of this. But just before the show, when Dave left for work this morning, he saw that Microsoft was going to do an update. And sure enough, when he came home and was getting ready to connect, it said it was 91% updated. He tried to stop the update, but I guess they kind of forced him through. So we spent some, what did we spend, like a half hour, 45 minutes the other day? At least. (00:24:41)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah, to make sure that we're going to be absolutely no problems tonight. And during the break, we had to take an extra long break there, trying to get the audio working. And to no avail, the update, the new update decided that it was going to screw the audio. So no matter what Dave was just trying to do, we could not get audio to play through. At the 55 minutes after the hour, we're going to go into another break, and we will make another attempt. But it's crushing because of the plan that we had to run these wonderful audio clips. (00:25:20)

[Martin Willis] : I'm trying to send them over to you, Martin, in the hopes we can still salvage this. Yeah, I mean, go ahead and try to send them. I don't know if you can talk and send at the same time. But do that, and I will forward them on to KGRA Radio and get them to play so we all can hear. Yeah, I don't want to disappoint the audience. We're going to try to make this happen. (00:25:41)

[Martin Willis] : All right. So I don't know if you can multitask, Dave, but if you happen to be able to do that, why don't we get right into the case? Everyone's just waiting to hear about it. (00:25:51)

[David Marler] : Absolutely. Well, this occurred way back on June 2nd, 1964, around four o'clock in the afternoon. And what's interesting about this is the fact that despite how dramatic the case is, as we alluded to, there was very little in the way of investigation at the time. And so there was really a lot of work on my part to try to establish what transpired. And I'm going to send those files right now, I think. And so what we're looking at is kind of a retrospective investigation. (00:26:27)

[David Marler] : A number of the witnesses are deceased, including the mother and the grandmother of the eight-year-old boy that was the victim in this case. However, the eight-year-old boy obviously is the principal witness, and he was in fact still alive. And I don't know if we can pull up real quick an image of Charles, what he looked like when he was eight years old, image number six. You bet. (00:26:52)

[David Marler] : We'll get right there. (00:26:53)

[Martin Willis] : Just a second. Here we go. Go ahead. (00:26:57)

[David Marler] : There. And so that's Charles. And Charles was playing that day in the back of the laundromat, which his grandparents owned in Hobbs, New Mexico, back in 1964. And as he has referenced in my interviews, it was kind of a home away from home. It was one of the family businesses. And he was playing out in the back lot, and he was approximately eight to 10 feet from the back door of the laundromat. His grandmother, one of the owners of the laundromat, was standing just inside the back doorway. (00:27:28)

[David Marler] : The door was open, and she was trying to keep an eye on him and keep an eye on things at the front of the laundromat. And so as a result of that, her attention was diverted momentarily, and she hears a swoosh or a whooshing sound in the air. And as a result of that, her head turns. And whereas just minutes before she saw her grandson playing in the back lot, she now saw him standing in the back lot with this black top-shaped object hovering one foot above his head, belching fire down from head to toe and engulfing her grandson in this fire. This all transpired in just a matter of several seconds. (00:28:12)

[David Marler] : And the fire disappeared, the object shot off, and the grandchild came running towards her with his hair on fire, temporarily blinded as a result of being burned by this object. And so that's kind of what set the stage for it. And even though Charles was the person that was burned, he obviously could not observe it as well as the grandmother. And so I just sent the files over via Skype, Martin. I don't know if you can see those. (00:28:43)

[David Marler] : Oh, they're Skype. Oh, okay. All right. All right. Very good. Go ahead. I don't know if you have those, but we might be able to get one queued up here in a little bit, and we'll be able to hear the grandmother. But what was very telling is as the grandmother was relaying this to Dr. James McDonald, she described that as soon as the object departed, Charles ran towards her and his face was burned, hair was on fire, and she described skin literally coming off of his face, falling off of his face in the aftermath of being burned by this UFO or this unusual object. (00:29:20)

[David Marler] : There was a nurse working or doing her laundry in the front of the laundromat. The grandmother shouted to her, they both are trying to put the fire out. His hair was on fire at this point. And just about that time, the grandfather pulled up in his vehicle and she shouted saying, Charles has been burned, get him to the hospital. At which point they quickly shuffled him into the car and drove him to the other side of town to the Lee General Hospital. And we may have an image of that hospital just to kind of provide some context there. (00:29:56)

[David Marler] : I think it's image number 14, Martin. You bet. Okay. I got it. And so they took him to the hospital where he was treated by a burn specialist in the ER, the emergency room. Dr. Badger was his name. And from Charles's recollection, in my recent interview with him, he stated that as he recalls, he was a burn specialist out of Lubbock, Texas, that would do rounds in the emergency room there. And so he was treated at the hospital. (00:30:29)

[David Marler] : He was there for approximately a week, although he had to go back for subsequent follow-up visits over a period of a month or two. The official proclamation was he suffered second degree burns. However, both Charles and his mother had relayed to Dr. McDonald that they were second and third degree burns. The mother described what he looked like, as well as the grandmother, in the aftermath, in the ensuing days and weeks after this incident. They said his face had swelled up so bad you couldn't even see his nose. (00:31:03)

[David Marler] : He had a black sooty material deposited all over his face. Most of his hair was burned off. His ears looked like ground beef. They were, as Charles told me, they were basically turned inside out, but they looked like raw meat. His lips were burned severely. He was temporarily blinded. And as a result of this, the only long-term side effects that he had, or long-term medical consequences he had as a result, is his hearing was damaged in his right ear, and his eyes, he needed glasses shortly after this. He didn't need glasses before this, but after the incident, I believe it was Dr. Taylor was the optometrist, or the eye doctor, that he saw after he had healed up. (00:31:50)

[David Marler] : The doctor basically implied that he needed to have glasses as a result of the heat that was exposed to his eyes. And so, since then, he's worn glasses and he's had a hearing deficit in his right ear. But that being said, the grandmother described flames burning all the way down from his head to his toe, yet the only telltale sign of a burn was from his jawline up. In other words, his neck, his shoulders, his t-shirt he was wearing was completely intact. (00:32:22)

[David Marler] : But the grandmother very emphatically stated he was covered from head to toe in fire. And so we have these incongruities, these things that we just can't explain. And the other thing we can't explain is the fact that despite the severity of his burns, if you were to look at him today, you would never know that he had succumbed to any type of burn. His ears are back to normal. There's no scarring on the face. (00:32:46)

[David Marler] : He's just your average 60-plus-year-old gentleman. And you know... (00:32:51)

[Martin Willis] : Pardon me. What I think of... I think your camera's off a little bit now. You're looking over at an angle. But I think the strangest part of this, correct me if I'm wrong, he had no pain. No pain. That was another unusual aspect. Unusual? How can you be that burned and have no pain? It doesn't make any sense to me. It's just amazing. (00:33:14)

[David Marler] : It doesn't make any sense at all. And in fact, it was interesting because, you know, he admits that, in fact. You know, he will state matter-of-factly, it doesn't make any sense. I don't know what it was. I don't know why it happened, but I know it happened. And you've seen the full interview to get a flavor of his sincerity. He doesn't claim to have any answers. The only thing he knows is he apparently was at the wrong place at the wrong time and had this very dramatic, very negative experience. (00:33:51)

[David Marler] : Another aspect of this, which is very interesting, is when he was playing in the back lot, his attention was drawn to this object that appeared. And just for the audience's sake, he was in the back lot. Immediately next to that was a back alley. And immediately after that was a one-story apartment building, which was probably little one-bedroom apartments. It wasn't very fancy by any means. It was probably literally a one-bedroom apartment. (00:34:20)

[David Marler] : And he said he saw this black object appear over the roof of the neighboring building there across the alley. And he stood up and he stated, when I stood up, I felt like it knew I was there and I knew it was there. Like there was mutual recognition. And he stated that I had this just uneasy feeling, like I just needed to get out of its gaze. So he stepped to the left. The object in response stepped or moved to the left. (00:34:48)

[David Marler] : He then moved to the right. The object mimicked his movements and moved to the right. He then crouched down behind this black block of concrete that was there, almost to hide from the thing. Then he stood up and moved to the right of it. The object again mimicked his movements. So two or three times we had this object mirroring his movements. And as soon as he moved again to the right, the object within a split second advanced towards him. So it moved so fast that he stated, I felt like it was almost as if a car is coming at you and you know you can't move in time, you just brace for impact. (00:35:27)

[David Marler] : And he closed his eyes, he clenched up like this in anticipation of this thing. He said, I thought it was going to go through me. But in point of fact, it didn't go through him. The object advanced, moved directly over his head, at which point it belched this column of fire down that consumed his body, then disappeared, and then the object immediately departed. (00:35:49)

[Martin Willis] : Dave, this is just really fascinating. For the YouTube person, we just have the image up there now of the sketch of what he sketched out as the black blob. It looks like a top, that's the best way you can describe it. When you're a kid, you have these tops, they usually have a stick on the top that you wrap the string around, make it spin around. So this is missing the stick, but it basically looks like a black top. (00:36:13)

[David Marler] : He described it at the time, and most recently as a black top. He stated that it was approximately two to three feet wide, and five to six feet tall. So we're not talking a large UFO, and I use that term literally, unidentified flying object. We don't know what this unidentified flying object was, but it was relatively small. This isn't the 30 foot sleek silver flying saucer that we're used to hearing about in the older reports. And so it's very interesting that we have this object. (00:36:44)

[David Marler] : Interestingly enough, in going through the historical data, I found a case that Jacques Vallée talked about in one of his early books, A Challenge to Science. And you could literally overlay those two sketches, the witnesses in France, and their dimensions that they described, because it was a European case, was listed in meters. When you convert the meters that they used to describe their object, which by the way, they described as a flying top, no surprise, it matches the dimensions in feet that Jacques had given me. (00:37:17)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah, isn't that something? And was that particular... if you're saying meters, then that was European, but wasn't there some sightings in Georgia? (00:37:27)

[David Marler] : Yes, well, and that's what's really fascinating about this case. Now, the date of the incident was June 2nd, 1964, which was a Tuesday. And that probably means nothing to the audience at this point. But there's a reason that I mentioned that. When we start looking at other reports, and I've got some of the reports right here, that was on June 2nd. Now, we have a report that many of the audience members can look up. There was a case from Livonia, Georgia, where a salesman by the name of Buford Parham was driving home late one evening, and he saw a black top-shaped object belching fire. (00:38:10)

[David Marler] : And it made three passes at his vehicle as he was driving. He felt intense heat as it moved around the vehicle. And in fact, it burned his arm. His arm was red from exposure to heat as a result of this thing. But he described it as a flying top, black, belching fire, very similar in nature to what Charles described. Now, Charles's case occurred about two to three weeks before. Now, what's interesting about that is most accounts will state that it occurred on Monday, June 29th. But when I went to the original investigator notes, it did occur the night of June 29th. But technically, it was Tuesday morning. (00:38:54)

[David Marler] : It was around one o'clock in the morning. And again, there's a reason I'm saying Tuesday. After that, we had several other cases in Georgia within an 85-mile radius of each other that garnered many newspaper articles and newspaper accounts, where multiple groups of people were describing a UFO that was a black top-shaped object belching fire. So we don't only have Charles's description in Hobbes, way over in Georgia, in the intervening or in the subsequent, what, six to eight weeks after that, we have other witnesses describing the same thing. And I might add, many of the cases in Georgia had local law enforcement that showed up on the scene who also witnessed the UFO. Wow. (00:39:41)

[Martin Willis] : We have, Dave, we do have the clips queued up. So is there one in particular you'd like the audience to hear? (00:39:50)

[David Marler] : Yes. Why don't we take a look at number, well, we have number five already. Let's look at, let me see here. Just trying to see. Let's look at number 13. (00:40:01)

[Martin Willis] : No, I'm talking, I'm sorry. Let me be more clear about that. We have 13 up there. I said clips. I meant clips, audio clips. Would you like to listen to an audio clip? Yes, that would be great. Do you have those? We're all set. We're ready. (00:40:14)

[David Marler] : Oh, great. Which one would you like to hear? Let's, the grandmother. Do you see one listed with the grandmother? (00:40:21)

[Martin Willis] : Race, hopefully you do. And again, I apologize. I don't see, I see Mrs. Mrs. something. I can only see the first few letters. Let me see here. I'll see if I can pull it up real quick. And my apologies. Oh, he's got it. He says he's ready to go. Okay. Go ahead and roll the clip if you would. Let's hear the grandmother. (00:40:48)

[SPEAKER_06] : Standing on the inside, but I could see him real good. And I heard, uh, uh, you know, how wind will blow up, you know, a swift flight. And, uh, I looked, it looked like a, um, black thing, uh, with three, was standing straight up, but I couldn't say anything. I could see him and under this star to the ground. And I could see him and under this star and, and this thing just on his forehead, uh, so far up it had burned the top of his hair off. (00:42:11)

[SPEAKER_06] : And, um, I grabbed him real quick. And, uh, the lady that was there with me, uh, said, Oh, put some water on it. And I said, no, but about that time, uh, I pulled him away from me. He was locked around my way. Uh, Oh, um, the skin was falling off of his face. And so, uh, drove up and I said, uh, take him to the doctor, to the hospital, to the emergency room. And, uh, Dr. Badger was on duty and, uh, there. (00:43:02)

[SPEAKER_06] : And so he said, uh, well, he'll have to go, uh, put him in the hospital. And, uh, he said, uh, when then he came on back and I went on up and he said, I don't understand this burn. He said, uh, uh, what kind of burn is this? Imagining thing, right? I'm telling you the truth. I said, this, whatever burned him come from these, uh, right out on mid, uh, lit down over his head. And I still think he, and, uh, so, uh, of course they didn't know what the outcome was going to be that night. (00:43:59)

[SPEAKER_06] : He, his eyes were swell too. He, uh, his little face was, Oh, just swell real big. And he just, um, I wanted to scratch it continually. We, I had to sit by his bedside 24 hours to keep him from scratching his, just tearing the skin off. It is so bad. And they didn't under, the doctor didn't understand that either. But then, uh, he got him and, uh, it, uh, it didn't leave us just nearly around the clock. (00:44:40)

[Martin Willis] : Is that the clip, Dave? That's it. That's the grandmother. Yeah. And we just heard, uh, McDonald there for just one second, right? Yeah, correct. At the very end there. Yes. Yeah. Uh, wow. Uh, very interesting, the different things she said, but you know, one, one of the things that is puzzling to me and, you know, I know this is kind of a gruesome topic for a lot of people. I think it is. (00:45:28)

[Martin Willis] : Um, but you know, she's talking about parts of his face falling off. The guy has no scars. Um, don't you think that is really, really another strange aspect to this? (00:45:38)

[David Marler] : It's, it's very strange. And in fact, when you look through and we don't have time to obviously go into all of them, but when we go through the newspaper accounts, um, the police were at odds to try to figure out what was going on. And rightly so they approached this from a very practical standpoint. Uh, one of the initial possibilities they thought might have happened was because this was June 2nd, maybe someone, since it's only a month from July 4th, maybe someone had a Roman candle, a block or two over, and they fired a Roman candle off. And the ball of fire, this fire he saw was actually a ball of fire from a Roman candle that hit him in the face. (00:46:18)

[David Marler] : They were never able to substantiate that. And in fact, later newspaper accounts say that there was no, there was no merit to that. It was just one possibility that they were exploring. Another one was that because it was a laundromat and you have boilers, maybe some steam jetted out and burned him on the face. Or another one had postulated another officer that maybe a ball of lint had flown out of one of the vents that ignited and hit him in the face. But when they went on site, they could find no telltale signs. (00:46:47)

[David Marler] : And in fact, they couldn't even find areas of burning on the ground. Now, for those that are familiar with the Southwest, there's a soil, highly packed, dense, clay-like soil called caliche. And Charles had told me recently that that's basically what was back there. There was no vegetation. It was just very hard. It's almost like a natural concrete, if you will. And he said that's all that was back there. And they tried to see if there was any burn marks, but there was really nothing to burn because of this caliche that was back there. (00:47:19)

[Martin Willis] : It makes good adobes too, I believe, or that whole composition. But we're ready to go into break now. I do think there's so many strange aspects to this. We've got a lot to cover. And we are going to, during this break, we are going to make another attempt at trying to make things happen. And that will be the video clip. Hopefully, we'll be able to do that. So hang in, everyone. (00:47:45)

[Martin Willis] : We'll be right back right after these messages. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. We took a break there, and we tried our darndest to get the video clip, which also has really good audio. So this is what I'm going to attempt to do. I'm currently in the middle of downloading this to my laptop. And what I'm going to do, or I'm going to say again, what I'm going to attempt to try to do is capture the window, get it through the software, so the people on YouTube can get a bonus at the end of the show, and the podcast listener can hear the audio of it, of the interview with the witness. (00:48:27)

[Martin Willis] : This is a... when did you... how long ago did you do that particular interview, David? That was last fall. So last fall. So this happened last fall, the interview. It's really good. So that is going to hopefully be a bonus to YouTube. It's always tricky setting up the audio on a situation like that. I will do my best. Be patient with me as soon as we end the show tonight, and hang in there if you want a bonus. What is it, about 20-some odd minutes, something like that? (00:48:58)

[Martin Willis] : About 11 minutes, actually. Oh, 11 minutes. Okay, you'll have 11 minutes after the end of the show. Sorry over at KGRA Radio, we can't do that over there, but hopefully the listener will get to hear that. So let's continue on. We have a... actually, we have an audio clip we were talking about playing. Can you go into the detail of that one in particular? (00:49:20)

[David Marler] : Yes, absolutely. So obviously, I've recently interviewed the witness, but again, James McDonald, to his credit, started looking into this case four years after it had occurred. So the recording we heard earlier with the grandmother was conducted in 1968, and right around that same time frame, give or take a day, he had reached out to the mother of Charles. And while speaking with Charles' mother, he said, by any chance, would Charles happen to be there? And she's like, yes, he's right here. (00:49:53)

[David Marler] : So the next clip we're going to hear is Charles, the burn victim, four years after the incident, relaying details to Dr. James McDonald. All right, roll it. (00:50:03)

[SPEAKER_07] : If you could try to describe to me the size and shape of the object that came down half as tall as you. And you were eight years old then, weren't you? (00:50:32)

[SPEAKER_06] : Do (00:50:32)

[SPEAKER_07] : you feel like a sack? (00:50:38)

[SPEAKER_06] : Yeah, and you don't even have a face. (00:50:40)

[SPEAKER_07] : Come down, what were you... well, let me try to describe it, like a bucket or a can in that sense? (00:50:47)

[SPEAKER_06] : No, it just like... (00:50:51)

[SPEAKER_07] : Well, let's see, maybe I'm still not right. Was it entirely above you, like somebody holding something above, or did it fit around you? No, it didn't. I see, did it come down the alley? How did you first see it? It was coming over a building. And then it dove down? (00:51:10)

[SPEAKER_06] : Over the top of me, it just kind of went down there, and like it was going to go through my body. (00:51:17)

[SPEAKER_08] : But it didn't ever touch you? (00:51:19)

[SPEAKER_07] : Well, did you ever feel the object touching you? (00:51:34)

No. (00:51:41)

[SPEAKER_07] : Could you see anything like steam? (00:51:43)

[SPEAKER_06] : No, I'm sure it was coming up. (00:51:49)

[SPEAKER_07] : It was only a short time? And then where did it go after it left you, do you know? Have you ever run into any other boys in the Hobbs area who saw anything like that? (00:52:46)

[SPEAKER_06] : No, I was the only one. (00:52:48)

[SPEAKER_07] : Nobody else saw it? (00:52:50)

[SPEAKER_06] : My grandma did, but she was the only one. And she was standing in the building, and I was standing just right in front of her. (00:52:57)

[SPEAKER_07] : Well, that's certainly astonishing. I wish I could, you know, give some explanation of what it was. Yeah. I'm afraid I can't, but it sounds to me like something that ought to be told. So, you're 12 now, aren't you, Charles? (00:53:15)

[SPEAKER_06] : Yeah, I'm nine years old. (00:53:22)

[SPEAKER_07] : Well, very good. Thanks a lot. Is your mother still on the phone? There we go. (00:53:28)

[Martin Willis] : Oh, that is really amazing. Really amazing. (00:53:32)

[David Marler] : Yeah, and I should mention the fact that this was a very devout, conservative, Pentecostal family. They were business owners. Again, the skeptics and people will laugh at the case and probably try to derail it and say, well, these people were a bunch of UFO believers. It was quite the opposite. And at the time, they never sought publicity. And so when people try to look at an alternate explanation, well, what is the alternate explanation? Did he accidentally injure himself and they concocted this UFO story? (00:54:05)

[David Marler] : It just doesn't seem to be something that they would do. It's not within their frame of mind to do something like that. And the other suggestion is, well, did they intentionally burn him? And for what reason? I mean, it's very strange. It does not fit the makeup of these individuals based on what I've learned about them. And again, there was no profit to be gained. There was no money to be had. (00:54:27)

[David Marler] : In fact, Charles, in my recent interview with him, he stated that, you know, a lot of people probably thought we were trying to make money. I said, well, quite the contrary. I said, you incurred a week's worth of hospital bills, not to mention follow-up medical bills. I said, quite the contrary. You guys incurred quite a bit of cost as a result of this. And so it was very interesting. And all of these years, in the 56 years since this happened, in interviewing him recently, he told me, he confided in me that he thought, whatever this was in 1964, that it must have been something military that went off range from either White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico or Holloman Air Force Base. They weren't thinking of UFO in a sense, alien spacecraft. (00:55:16)

[David Marler] : So again, these aren't space cadets fashioning or constructing a story like this. And it wasn't until I met with him and he started thinking about this after 56 years that many thoughts and ideas started to come to the surface that he hadn't thought about in decades, literally decades. And in fact, I'll be sharing additional video interviews that touch on that at the upcoming conference in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, where I'll be presenting this material. (00:55:46)

[Martin Willis] : Did he ever become really emotional when he... I mean, this is like picking at an old scar. I hate to say that term, but it kind of fits this one. Did he ever get like it was too much for him or was he able to talk about it well? (00:56:04)

[David Marler] : He was able to talk about it well, but I'm really glad you bring that up because that was always in the forefront of my mind as I was interviewing him. In fact, when I first, as I mentioned earlier, knocked on his door completely unannounced and wanted to dredge up this incident from what was then 55 years ago. And so I was trying to be as delicate as possible, yet try to be to the point. But no. (00:56:30)

[David Marler] : And in fact, in some of the comments that I have in another clip, which as I mentioned, I'll be sharing at the conference, he states that he's okay with it now. That, you know, initially it was something strange. He couldn't wrap his mind around it, but pretty much myself, my family, we all just kind of, as he said, put it in the closet, tried to forget about it and just move on with our lives. And again, harboring under the notion that this must have been something military. (00:56:58)

[David Marler] : And I will concede, and I think probably many of your audience members are sitting there thinking as they're listening to this, this doesn't sound like something high tech. It sounds like a bad lawnmower. It's belching fire, it's belching black smoke. It doesn't fit the model of what we would think would be advanced technology. But at the same time, in talking with Charles last fall, he indicated that, but knowing what we have with drones today, he goes, I would think it would be something like a drone. But he said, but knowing what our drones do today, to look back to 1964, and he went back to how this thing mimicked his movements, how it would quickly move like this. (00:57:39)

[David Marler] : He said, now thinking about it, he goes, I'm beginning to question the military explanation, because I can't believe we would have something like that. And then he posed the question to me, he goes, and even if we did have that, why would they seek out and burn an eight-year-old child? And I countered that with, well, one could use the same argument, Charles, why would extraterrestrials fly vast distances just to burn an eight-year-old child? He goes, well, that's true. (00:58:04)

[David Marler] : He goes, I agree with you on that one. He goes, no matter how you look at it, it doesn't make any sense. But it happened. (00:58:12)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah. When you were looking into this, you know, a lot of times something like this will go into unexplained mysteries, or has anyone ever done a story about this case over the years that you're aware of? (00:58:24)

[David Marler] : Well, there's been slight references to it. John Schuessler, a good friend and colleague, John Schuessler, former international director of MUFON, John wrote a physiological case report where he documented in very small paragraphs, just a quick synopsis of UFO incidents over the last several decades involving burn victims or radiation cases or electromagnetic effects on the body. And he does have a quick little blurb about it and references the APRO Bulletin. And subsequent to the APRO Bulletin, the article was published in Fate magazine, and apparently an issue of the National Enquirer as late as 1970, you know, six years after the incident. (00:59:10)

[David Marler] : So there have been references to it, but nobody's taking the time to say, well, let's go back and investigate this case, or let's go talk to this witness. And what's interesting is also touching on what we started talking about at the beginning of the show, looking at these old cases, Charles told me point blank, if you came knocking on my door 15-20 years ago, I probably wouldn't talk to you about this. And I looked at him and my wife was there with me, we both looked at him and I said, well, why are you willing to talk about it now? (00:59:42)

[David Marler] : And he said, one, because I know I've gotten to know you, and I know you're doing this for the right reasons, you're trying to present the truth and trying to find answers to this mystery. And he said, but second of all, he goes, you know, I'm in my early mid-60s. He said, I'm to the point now in life where I don't care who sees this, I don't care who hears about it. There's a lot of skeptics out there, but if people want to believe it, that's fine. (01:00:09)

[David Marler] : If people don't want to believe it, that's fine too. He goes, I'm just to the point in my life where I don't care anymore. I can totally relate to that. (01:00:17)

[Martin Willis] : Yeah, yeah. (01:00:18)

[David Marler] : And so, yeah, so I think it's important sometimes to revisit these cases, even if these witnesses were hesitant to come forward in the wake of these encounters, with the passage of time, with, as I think you alluded to, being able to deal with the situation, both mentally, psychologically, sometimes they're in a better place to start relaying this information. Right, right. (01:00:43)

[Martin Willis] : Why don't we cue up that last clip? It's the mother, right? Is that the interview with the mother? So if you wouldn't, I don't think I have any images of her, but let's roll the case of the mother. Okay. The clip. (01:00:57)

[SPEAKER_06] : It was black. It hit him on the face and the top of his head. It didn't burn him. It didn't even go on his neck. It suspected his eyes and hearing about it. Well, we reported it to the police station and there was no, there was nothing on the ground. Well, you know, he had second and third degree burns. He was burnt. His face was horrible. His eyes were, well, it was swollen in his eyes. (01:01:49)

[SPEAKER_06] : You couldn't even see his eyes. Actually, he looked like a monster that they would put on TV. It was horrible. He couldn't even see out of his eyes. He couldn't see at all. It covered his whole body and he ran to her and she grabbed him to try to smother it. So apparently he looked like he was on fire. He, uh, as long as it never changed his story. And of course I had thought, uh, uh, since this has happened in the last two years, uh, burns, had you seen him, it was, it would have been unbelievable. (01:03:07)

[David Marler] : Yeah. And it was interesting, uh, piggybacked with that was in talking with Charles, one of the epiphanies, if you will, that came to him, not having thought about this in decades, he says now as a parent, he goes, I never really stopped to think about the effect that this had on my mother. He goes, thinking of her at work, getting a call from my grandmother and hearing this seemingly outrageous story that this thing came out of the air and severely burned his face in his head. He goes, as a parent now, I've never thought about this. (01:04:39)

[David Marler] : And he looked at the camera as I'm talking to him. He said, I'm only now starting to think of these things because you're dredging a lot of stuff up in my mind. He said, I've never really stopped to think of the emotional impact that I had on my mother to receive that call. And he, and he said, you have daughters. He goes, imagine if your wife called and said one of your daughters was burned severely, you know, from the head up, you know, you would want answers, you would, you would want an explanation. And so there were many things like this that he had never thought about until we really started having this dialogue and this discussion. (01:05:10)

[David Marler] : Martin, I don't know, did we bring up image number 10? I just wanted to share that. That was my wife and I with Charles. (01:05:16)

[Martin Willis] : I will bring that up right now. Just right now I have a image of basically of Charles today, but we'll pull that up. Oh, great. Yeah. And here it goes right here. The picture of you, your lovely wife and Charles together is up on YouTube. Yes. Yeah. (01:05:34)

[David Marler] : Yeah. We spent an entire weekend together with him and his wife and got a chance to really get to know them and their business that they run in the city that they live in, in the Southwest, and really had a chance to get to know them a little bit as individuals. We talked about a lot of stuff beyond the case and we developed a pretty good friendship as a result. (01:05:54)

[Martin Willis] : And if you can describe... it's a little tiny room. For some reason, your camera focuses off. A little tiny room you're into and you stuffed back in there and he has a business he's running and employees are running, wondering what the heck's going on. (01:06:09)

[David Marler] : It was a running joke that weekend. We were bringing in lots of equipment and he has a little, I would say it was probably six foot wide office by about maybe 10 foot long or 11 feet long. And so Charles is in there at his desk. I'm there behind the camera, set up a tripod and my wife is wedged in the back corner of the room near the door. And we're conducting this interview. (01:06:34)

[David Marler] : And then both before and after the interview, we're out in a little private area there where some of the workers could see us. And a couple of times the employees had to come over and ask him a question. And he said, everyone's trying to figure out who you guys are and what you're doing here. He goes, I just told him we're thinking about selling the business and your investors. So even his employees don't know about this incident. (01:07:01)

[David Marler] : And like I said, his wife didn't even know all the details until that weekend. Wow. (01:07:06)

[Martin Willis] : When you spoke with him, did he ever talk about like putting this thing away and out of his life? Did he have an intention to that just be out of his life and not ever talk about it again? (01:07:19)

[David Marler] : Pretty much. I mean, pretty much until, like I said, I knocked on his door. He said there were some subsequent articles that were written. And in fact, I think we might have one of those. I think it was image number seven, if we've pulled that up yet. Yeah. The black blob article. Yeah. (01:07:33)

[Martin Willis] : OK. And that was done a few years. Yeah. So. Oh, yes. I've had that up many times. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. (01:07:42)

[David Marler] : That was one that was written about a year or two after the incident. There were some subsequent articles written and people trying to attempt to reach out to them. But most of those overtures were, you know, pretty much rebuffed by the mother who really didn't want to talk about it anymore. Again, they they know something happened. They were never able to grapple with what happened. And in fact, you know, Charles had some really interesting insights. He said, if someone were to come to me today and ask me what happened, how can I as an adult looking back 55 years, 56 years now, and tell them with clarity what happened when my mother, my father, my grandparents were there and they were witness to it in the aftermath and they couldn't speak to it at the time? (01:08:31)

[David Marler] : How can I as a child then adult now look back on it and try to provide any more clarity? He goes, the only thing I can do is share the details like I shared with you and try to answer as many questions as I can. But he said, I still don't know what it was. He says, some people say it's military. Some people say it's a UFO. He goes, I have no idea. (01:08:52)

[David Marler] : But he said, at the end of the day, I know something happened. What was his recovery process like? Well, for the first week, as I mentioned, he was in the hospital. And I think we have one, I think it's image number four, where you can actually see where he was discharged from the hospital. Yeah, there's a news article. I have that up right now. Oh, great. Yeah. And that was the Lubbock Avalanche. And if you notice, that was Lubbock, Texas, that ran that article. (01:09:20)

[David Marler] : There was another one in Odessa, Texas. But beyond that, I could not find anything other than local. In other words, Hobbs, New Mexico newspaper and the Lee County newspaper that ran most of the articles. And you can follow his recovery on almost a daily basis. They had a news article updating his status on a day-by-day basis during that week he was in the hospital. (01:09:45)

Yeah. (01:09:45)

[David Marler] : And any lasting effects? The only lasting effects is he still has some hearing deficit in his right ear. And as I mentioned, he has to wear glasses. Yeah. (01:09:56)

[Martin Willis] : And in general, I know you said that he has, he had no idea, he can't tell you today, or he couldn't tell you then what it is. But what type of speculation at the time did you, when you were digging around, what did you find with it? You already mentioned that, you know, what the hoaxy things like lint, burnt lint, and the, you know, but what were some of the more logical or something that seemed logical as far as what they were? (01:10:29)

[David Marler] : Yeah. One of the other things that the police were postulating is that he was just playing with matches. And in fact, he remembers one of the officers talking to him in the hospital stating, we're now, we're going to go back to that location. And if we see any matches, he goes, you're going to be in big trouble. And they thought he was playing with matches and somehow set his hair on fire, which obviously still would not account for the major injury to his face. I mean, it's certainly that would set your hair on fire, but I don't think it would cause the severity of burns that he incurred. (01:10:58)

[David Marler] : But he said that they went on location and they couldn't find any matches. He goes, and I even remember as a kid thinking, I hope one of the people in the laundromat didn't light a cigarette and throw a match down because then they're going to blame that on me. He goes, I remember as a kid thinking that, that if they do find something that then they think I did make this whole thing up, which obviously he didn't. And again, we have the grandmother's testimony. (01:11:21)

[David Marler] : She physically witnessed the object. We're not just talking about she witnessed him being burned. She saw the object. She saw the object inflicting this harm upon him. And again, we're talking a devout Pentecostal family. UFOs were probably not even in their mindset. Now, one thing from the last clip I'd like to touch on, the FBI was involved. The grandmother's blouse was sent into the FBI laboratories. Some of the skin that had fallen off his face, they had taken skin scrapings. (01:11:54)

[David Marler] : They had sent that in and his t-shirt that he wore. They sent that in to have it analyzed. The family never heard back on it. They never heard another word. And so in December of last year, I filed a FOIA request with the FBI to try to get my hands on the case file, any information, the laboratory results, anything that we could look at from the FBI standpoint. Within about two to three weeks, I got a rejection letter stating because it involved third party individuals, it would violate privacy issues. (01:12:27)

[David Marler] : And so they terminated my request. So I redrafted the exact same request, took my name off, put Charles's name on there, mailed it to Charles, had him sign and date it, and he submitted it under his name. So they can't say it's third party at that point. He received a letter back and they stated they needed some additional information. And this isn't actually too long ago since I spoke with him last, but he was wrestling with whether he wanted to go through the time and effort of filling out all the additional paperwork and submitting it. So I need to follow up. (01:13:01)

[David Marler] : Again, he's not, he doesn't want to invest a lot of time in this. He was nice enough to afford me time to interview him, but he's not into UFOs. And he has a business to run. He has a family. But I am going to be talking to him to see if he has resubmitted that. And if he hasn't, I hope I can convince him to resubmit that in the hopes that we can get some FBI laboratory results. (01:13:21)

[Martin Willis] : Okay. One thing I want to clarify, and I don't think we've touched on this at all, is that he, even though his name is out there, he has a different name. And he doesn't want people to... he wants no publicity, basically. He runs a business. He's known in his little town that he's in. Lots of people come into this business. And he just doesn't want, he does not want any fanfare at all. And so he has nothing to gain. (01:13:53)

[Martin Willis] : And basically, you know how to connect to him. And I encourage the person out there wanting to connect to him to forget about it. Right. Because he doesn't want to hear from anyone, really. (01:14:03)

[David Marler] : Yeah. And if someone does truly feel, or if maybe someone's had a similar experience, that they would like to contact him, if you want to contact me through my website, I would be more than happy to forward the email on. I just can't guarantee you're going to get a reply. But I will promise your audience that I will forward any emails I receive to him. And then at that point, it's upon him if he wants to reply. (01:14:28)

[David Marler] : Excellent. (01:14:29)

[Martin Willis] : Well, I'm sure you could go into this case. It's just the clock has been ticking away. It always does. Every time you're on this show, it never seems like there's enough time left. But I would like to take calls. Great. If there's a caller out there that has a question about this case. I know it's possible someone may want to talk about Triangle UFO or something like that. That is possible. (01:14:56)

[Martin Willis] : But if someone would like to call in, I'll have that number up in the screen. But for people listening in different ways, and all different types of ways you can listen to this, that number is 855-472-5483. And feel free to give a call. And we will be screening that call a race over there at KGRA Radio. So feel free to call in. And the lines are wide open. Where do you think you're going to get with... (01:15:32)

[Martin Willis] : you said you did the FOIA. That'll go in. Do you think that they, anyone, is thinking they had an idea? Any type of, you know, the FBI, for instance. Do you think they dove deep into this thing? Or do you think it's just something they quickly looked at and moved on? Any ideas? (01:15:53)

[David Marler] : Well, I think it was probably the answer that's probably predicated on what the laboratory results were. If they didn't find any anomalies or anything highly unusual as a result of doing the laboratory analysis on the grandmother's blouse or his shirt, where do you really go from there? You know, you have the testimony. You don't show any anomalies. So there's really not much to follow up on. If they did detect something highly unusual or some type of residue on the grandmother's blouse or his shirt or in the skin samples they provided, then maybe they launched a further inquiry. (01:16:30)

[David Marler] : Now, it does not mention this in the newspapers from the time, but Charles remembers both the Hobbs police and FBI officers showing up in the hospital in the wake of his burn. And he says, you remember that? And I think this is rather interesting for the eight-year-old child and all of us. He said, when you're in the hospital back in 1964 and you're eight years old, he goes, when you have government agents come in with their badges and with their guns, he said, you remember that as an eight-year-old boy? He goes, I was impressed with that. (01:17:03)

[David Marler] : And he said, he goes, and he even commented, he said, the demeanor of the Hobbs police versus the FBI was very different. The Hobbs police, they were like desperately trying to find a prosaic explanation. He said, the FBI, they came in after the initial inquiries made by the Hobbs police. And he said, they seem more sympathetic. They seemed like they wanted to listen to me a little bit more, that they weren't just trying to, you know, basically call me a liar or try to find an explanation. Now, that being said, the Hobbs police were very cooperative with me when I reached out to them. (01:17:39)

[David Marler] : I was hoping to try to get police reports from the time period. And I was concerned given the passage of time, but they were very polite. And they said, we'll check our records, but we don't think we have them going back that far. We do have some old case files that were microfilmed. We'll go and check. But again, we don't know if we have anything going back to 64. They checked and they did come back. (01:17:58)

[David Marler] : They said, Dave, we do have old case files, but none going back that far. And then the hospital, yeah. And the hospital I called and I work in the health care field. And I know there's usually a 10 year retention law with regard to medical records. Obviously, we're well outside that window. But I still did call the hospital where he was taken. And they said, no, there's absolutely no way we'd have medical records going back that far. And so unfortunately, the FBI is the only possible source. (01:18:26)

[David Marler] : And being federal, you know, if they do have reports and they're willing to come forward, that that's probably our best source of government documentation with regard to this or documentation other than the newspaper accounts. (01:18:37)

[Martin Willis] : All right. Wow. Interesting. All right. Well, we have Steve from Oregon on the line. Steve, welcome to the show. Hey, guys. Can you hear me OK? We hear you. Oh, my God. We don't have any issues with technical problems. Hi, Steve. How are you? That means an asteroid will probably hit Earth here in a minute. Yeah, it's on the way. Yeah. (01:18:59)

[SPEAKER_05] : Yeah. So my question is, it's not about this particular case. It's about how much work have you done with boomerang shapes? I know you're. (01:19:13)

[David Marler] : Yeah, I collected a lot of boomerang reports when I was doing my triangular UFO research and specifically looking at the Hudson Valley sightings, because for those that are familiar with that case, they were describing chevron shaped boomerang shaped as well as triangular shaped objects. And so I haven't done an exhaustive analysis of those cases, but I've certainly come across a lot and have a lot here in the files, you know, going back decades, much like the triangles there. There's a lot of these boomerang reports over the years and even probably some today. (01:19:50)

[David Marler] : And, you know, the Phoenix lights, people often liken that to a triangular UFO. But really, it was more of a a wedge or chevron shaped V shaped object, not really a true triangle in the sense of the three sides. It was more of a flying wing, if you will. (01:20:06)

[SPEAKER_05] : And that's why I'm that's why I'm asking is that's always been my real that's really been what I've been interested in is that 830 Phoenix light sighting. Right. Since in the past few years, I've been going through old documentaries that predate Phoenix lights, and I found a bunch of those boomerangs. And they all they all share the same three characteristics of being gigantic, slow, low, and silent. And I get it. (01:20:41)

[David Marler] : Yeah. If you get the opportunity, go online and check out some of Project Blue Book's own files. There's some really good cases from the 1950s and 1960s with very detailed sketches that show these boomerang shaped objects. And in fact, J. Allen Hynek wrote in his one of his books, a paperback edition. I think it's the Hynek UFO report. I was doing investigations in Missouri back in the 90s and near an area called Marshfield, Missouri. And there was a case in doing historical research trying to compare historic cases to what was being reported at that time. (01:21:17)

[David Marler] : There's a case that he writes about called the case of the Leisurely Boomerang. And so that one might be of interest to you as well. But there are some really interesting cases in the files touching on boomerangs. (01:21:28)

[SPEAKER_05] : I found a bunch of them in the corridor between Albuquerque and Phoenix. A bunch of cases out in that area. Yeah. Curious. I mean, because I found so many cases now that go all the way back to the 50s. Yeah. That's something I can contact you about. (01:21:47)

[David Marler] : Yeah, please, please do. I'd love to love to share some information. I've got some case files I could share with you as well. (01:21:55)

[SPEAKER_05] : OK, that'd be fantastic. (01:21:57)

[David Marler] : Yeah. It's a great show. (01:22:00)

[Martin Willis] : Thank you. Thanks a lot for the call, Steve. And the lines are wide open. I knew we'd get into I just knew we'd get into some triangle UFOs. No, that's a great question. Yeah. And it seems to me that you and I have had a lot of conversations over the last few years of me like finding these obscure people having, you know, a triangle UFO one in Massachusetts of a woman that I know in an auction gallery right over her car. Then the one that happenstance I talked to a woman out at a casino and in Arizona. And she said, oh, yeah. (01:22:40)

[Martin Willis] : And she told me this whole story about a triangle UFO following her car. And that's a lot. And there's a I know we're getting off the topic of the main topic, but there's a lot of speculation, of course. A lot of people saying, you know, military, you know, black ops or whatever it is. But also, you know, there are there have been sightings and people don't realize this. It seems like there's a lot of triangle sightings now, but they they're for the listener that has never heard you talk about it, if we can just touch on that a little bit. (01:23:13)

[Martin Willis] : Absolutely. They're going back very early times. (01:23:16)

[David Marler] : In fact, I will tell you two things related to that if we have time. I will be addressing this very topic that you're talking about as far as military versus another explanation for these triangular UFOs. For those that watch the TV show Unidentified on the History Channel, I will be in I'm told I will be in episode number two of season two. And Steve and the other audience members out there that are interested in these cases, please tune in. Chris Mellon came here to my research room and we had some very interesting discussions about the triangular UFO phenomenon, which he is particularly interested in. (01:23:54)

[David Marler] : And you'll see that play out on camera in that episode. And in fact, it's structured around the basis of my book. And we'll talk about some of the common characteristics. And we talk about could it be military? Could it be someone else's technology? Could it be a mixture of both? And ironically, right before Chris arrived, a week before he arrived, as you know, Martin, I'm always gathering new collections, new data, new case files. I acquired a beautiful set of 1950 scrapbooks with vintage flying saucer reports. (01:24:26)

[David Marler] : Nothing gets better than going through these old newspaper accounts. And in 1950, and I shared this with Chris, and I hope it makes the final cut. So you'll see it play out on camera. I show it to him. And it is a description. It says, flying triangles, newest twist in flying disc stories. This is 1950. We weren't even calling them UFOs yet. And it is a report by two individuals flying a private plane, looking down at two triangular UFOs. In other words, it's between the ground and their plane. (01:25:02)

[David Marler] : How often do we ever hear of a report of people looking down on these triangular objects? And it's in 1950. And they go into detail describing the account. And that's just one I came across. There's actually new old cases I've uncovered going through the newspaper archives. (01:25:19)

[Martin Willis] : That is so fascinating. We have a call here. We're I love the subject because it's so interesting. And what is really fascinating is that there's so many different shapes. And then it almost seems like this year's model is this. And what I saw was my particular sighting was a blue glow disc. And I haven't really heard anyone talk about that. And I was watching something the other night and the guy said it was a flying saucer and it had a blue glow to it. And it's like, wow, you know, so I'm not alone. (01:26:05)

[Martin Willis] : Absolutely. But there's so many different models. A lot of people have talked about orbs. You know, there's lights in the sky and all that. But right now it seems like there's a lot of triangles. (01:26:19)

[David Marler] : And the reports seem chaotic because of that. There's so many different subsets of UFO reports. But amongst that noise, if you will, there appear to be patterns in the data, as I outlined with my book. And as Steve was alluding to with the boomerang shaped UFOs, there do appear to be patterns in the data and correlations. And that's really, if you were to sum up my research, that's what I'm looking for. Patterns in the data. (01:26:43)

[David Marler] : Because if there's patterns in the data, it's suggestive, not conclusive, suggestive that we're dealing with a real phenomenon that needs to be investigated. (01:26:51)

[Martin Willis] : We have Mike from Michigan. How are you doing, Mike? Welcome to the show. (01:26:58)

[SPEAKER_04] : Hey guys, how's it going? (01:27:01)

[Martin Willis] : Hey, Mike. We're doing good. You got a question for our guest tonight? (01:27:05)

[SPEAKER_04] : Yeah, I want to know about what you know about the Cape Girardeau, Missouri case. They played Linda Mullenhall yesterday on her show. And they were talking about all this stuff. And I was thinking it's funny, because wasn't Donald Trump just holding one of his rallies in Missouri within the last year in Cape Girardeau? And Senator Rush Limbaugh? (01:27:36)

[David Marler] : Yeah, I don't know about the Donald Trump connection, but the Cape Girardeau case comes up quite often. I think you're talking about the 1941 purported crash of a UFO. (01:27:47)

[Martin Willis] : And the grandfather, yes. (01:27:49)

[David Marler] : Yeah, I've had numerous researchers contact me asking me, do I have any documentation pertaining to the 1941 Cape Girardeau UFO crash case? And not only do I not have any information, I really, despite the dialogue that's been out there on that, Mike, I've not seen anybody provide one shred of evidence. To me, until I can see a contemporary newspaper account, or something that we can kind of hang our hat on, to me, it's kind of become an urban myth, an urban legend of sorts. Even in Roswell, we of course, have the Roswell Daily Record newspaper that documented that, yes, this was reported at the time. (01:28:29)

[David Marler] : But if someone has information out there, I'd love to see it. But really, at this point, I'm kind of an agnostic when it comes to the Cape Girardeau story. There's a lot of dialogue, but there's nothing that we can really hang our hat on. And Martin, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on that as well. What's your opinion? (01:28:48)

[Martin Willis] : Well, we had Charlotte Mann on the show. And she is... was she the granddaughter? Yeah. She'll be in Eureka Springs, actually, with me. Oh, yeah. Interesting woman. And she was on the show and talked about it. And, you know, she is... she's sold. She's sold. She thinks it really did happen. But hey, thanks for the call, Mike. Thanks, Mike. All good. See you guys. All right. Next, we actually have another one. (01:29:17)

[Martin Willis] : We've got Steve from Las Vegas. Welcome to the show, Steve. (01:29:21)

[SPEAKER_00] : Thank you very much. Hi, Martin and David. I'll take my answer off the air. First, I've been following UFOs... UFOlogy for the past 50 years. I've been collecting footage for the past 25 years. And I've been... my conclusion that I've been kind of questioning myself is how is this going to... who's going to come out? And I think that with all the footage that I've been collecting through the years, the sightings are becoming more and more. And there were some sightings that get recorded that just amazes me that I wish would get analyzed more by people that could analyze them. (01:30:06)

[SPEAKER_00] : One of my questions is, do you think that possibly that these UFOs are letting us see them more and more and that our government has started to open up a little bit because they cannot keep them from showing themselves when they want to, whenever they want to over military? And my second question, Chris Millen wrote an article stating that the House Committee of Space Science and Technology has asked NASA to investigate some of these sightings that they could be probed, that could correct real probes. Thank you. (01:30:43)

[David Marler] : Yeah. Wow. Great questions. I don't know where to start. First, I'd like to thank you for all your years of dedication and following the subject matter and researching it. I mean, many people get involved in the subject and they get burned out very quickly because they don't find any answers. And there's not many stubborn people like you and I that stick with it for decades and continue to plug away. So thank you. (01:31:06)

[David Marler] : But I would like to add, I was going to mention before you did, Chris Millen. I think the efforts of Chris and his group and with the US Navy now coming forward and basically verifying that these UAPs, these UFOs that were filmed by naval pilots are a legitimate phenomenon, that these films are legitimate. And the doors that Chris and his team have opened, there's been a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill that is not making media coverage. There are behind the scenes discussions. (01:31:39)

[David Marler] : And I think you'll see that in season two of Unidentified. I think they'll be touching on that a little bit as much as they can. But you bring up a really good point, though, as far as are these UFOs wanting to be seen more? Are they allowing themselves to be seen more? And I can't answer that definitively, but one might think yes, especially looking at these military encounters where they were able to film them and track them on their Aegis radar systems, where we not only have footage, we have telemetry, where we can measure speed and distance and angular velocity and things like that. So I think that's interesting. (01:32:15)

[David Marler] : And you touch on something I wrote about in my book, which you may have read, where I talk about, people talk about disclosure, disclosure, disclosure is going to happen. Well, as far as the cover up and disclosure is concerned, if we're dealing with an advanced technology and an advanced intelligence, if they want to make themselves known, they could obviously do so. It's clear that they can fly rings around our military aircraft. So we don't have control of the phenomenon, rather, the phenomenon has control of us. (01:32:45)

[David Marler] : So when people talk about the government covering it up, they're covering up as best they can, but they're at odds to come to terms with what they're dealing with, because we do appear to be dealing with advanced technology. And again, I say that confidently now, deferring to the naval footage and the naval pilots that have come forward that have stated, these things are flying rings around our aircraft. So, and there's a lot of people that are making great money on the lecture circuit, just talking about disclosure and speculating. (01:33:15)

[David Marler] : And that's really what it is, is speculation. But at the end of the day, we're at the mercy of this phenomenon, whatever it is, because clearly it's advanced technology. (01:33:24)

[Martin Willis] : That is really... I'm glad you said all that, because those are many things that I've pondered, you know, more recently than not. You know, we only have two minutes left. So I do want to tell the listener, both on the podcast and on YouTube, that we are going to play the 11-minute clip of Charles Davis, the witness, the person who actually now recorded last year a video of that recorded last year. So at the end, you want to hang in. (01:34:01)

[Martin Willis] : I'm going to go into a break, then I'm going to check my audio and make sure that it's coming through, and then I'm going to come back on. So for the listener on YouTube, just hang in there. We'll be right back after that. Dave, so we've got one minute left. You're going to be speaking in how many places you have lined up right now? (01:34:19)

[David Marler] : Oh, I've got about six or seven lectures this year. If people go to my website, www.DavidMarlerUFO.com, click on the lecture tab, and you'll have a link to each of those conferences. So you'll see where I'm speaking. I'll be in Eureka Springs, Arkansas at the Ozark Mountain UFO Conference, April 10th through 12th, the Spring 2020 MUFON Pennsylvania Conference, April 24th through 25th. And I'll be speaking at Phoenix MUFON, Denver, Colorado MUFON. I'll be in Shag Harbor in Nova Scotia. Oh, I was thinking of going. (01:34:52)

[David Marler] : This October. Oh, wow. This October. Yeah. And so along with some other lectures. So please go to my website, check that out. Feel free to reach out to me. But yeah, I'll be covering quite a bit of ground this year, Martin. Excellent. (01:35:05)

[Martin Willis] : All right, David, the time is always way too short with you. And I want to thank you so much. And it's been a real pleasure getting to know you as well. And I think they broke the mold when they make you and I hope other people will look at your work and be inspired to do the same type of work. Thank you. All right. So that's it for the show. I'm sorry, it's not it for the show. (01:35:28)

[Martin Willis] : That's it for the show over at KGRA Radio. For all else, others hang in there. We'll be right back right after this break. Don't go away. All right. Welcome back, everyone. And I am going to run the clip right now. This is Charles Davis last year, last fall, talking about the object and what happened to him in 1964. (01:35:57)

[Charles Davis] : I'm Charles Keith Davis from Hobbs, New Mexico. And in 1964, I encountered a strange object during daylight hours at my grandparents' laundromat that appeared over some apartment buildings that was in the shape of a top that must have been described as a UFO or whatever you want to describe it. But it followed me and swooped on my body and gave me second and third degree burns on my face. My grandmother witnessed part of it, Grady Smith. And I don't know what it was. (01:36:42)

[Charles Davis] : I just know that I encountered something very unusual that we've kind of kept under the closet for 55 years. And up until Dave came, we haven't talked about it much. It's kind of been like, I'm not going to say a family secret, but there's so many skeptics out there that it's not something you want to talk about. And if you ask me what it is or what it was, I don't know. I just know it wasn't something you see every day or I've ever seen in my lifetime again. (01:37:13)

[Charles Davis] : If it was domestic or from outer space, I have no idea, no idea at all. I just know that I saw it. It swooped toward me, engulfed my body. When it left, I had second and third degree burns from my face up. I know they brought in the FBI, the Hobbs Police Department. And to this day, we still don't have answers. I know they took part of my clothing to check it for evidence. They checked the area I was burned. (01:37:43)

[Charles Davis] : And 55 years later, I'm going to tell you there's no answers, any more than we had the day that the occurrence occurred, if that makes sense. (01:37:53)

[David Marler] : No, that's a bad aspect. (01:37:54)

[Charles Davis] : I went to my grandparents' laundromat. They were going to watch me that day. And I was very comfortable there. I was very at home. It was almost like a home away from home. It was one of the family businesses. And I remember, I can't remember in detail because it's been so many years, but I was out in the back of the laundromat where people parked to unload their clothes and the main entrance into the laundromat. And I was out there just horse playing and playing. (01:38:22)

[Charles Davis] : And I remember I looked up and I saw an object, very dark, I would describe as black, similar to the shape of a top. And I remember looking up and seeing and it frightened me or startled me or I don't know the word you would use. But I remember I was affixed on it and it seemed to be affixed upon me. And I don't know if I moved left or right first, but when I moved, it moved with me. When I moved, it moved. (01:38:51)

[Charles Davis] : I remember ducking at one point to try to hide from the object. And I remember standing up and moving to the other side from the opposite direction I'd moved. And at that point, it was just a matter of seconds, it swooped on me. And I don't know what it was. You know what I mean? I have no idea. I know it was burning me and I screamed for my grandmother. And I ran toward the laundromat to get a hold of my grandmother. (01:39:16)

[David Marler] : And I got a hold of her right there. What did that feel like? You described that previously when you were enveloped in that flame or underneath this thing. (01:39:26)

[Charles Davis] : I'm going to say terror as being a child and having something attack you. But maybe the word more is shock. Maybe I was more shocked. Because even as a child, I knew what was happening wasn't supposed to be happening. It wasn't something you would occur in your everyday, daily occurrences. You'd never seen anything before or since like that? Not at all. And to this day, I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was military or you know what? (01:40:01)

[Charles Davis] : I have no idea. I have no idea at all. Can you walk us through that? I remember my grandmother trying to put my hair out because my hair was on fire. My face was burnt severely. I remember there was a nurse there. I remember somebody pouring something on my head to try to cinch the fire where my face had been burning on my hair. And I remember they wanted to call an ambulance. And right at that moment, my grandfather just happened to pull into the laundromat. (01:40:32)

[Charles Davis] : And he was like, no, we don't have time to wait. And the nurse and my grandfather put me in their car and drove me to the hospital. And at the hospital, there was a Dr. Badger that was a bird specialist with the birds. (01:40:48)

[David Marler] : And what do you remember being diagnosed with? Were those second, third degree burns? Second and third degree burns. (01:40:54)

[Charles Davis] : I remember my eyes were burnt shut. I couldn't see for the first few days. And they said my ears had turned inside out. I had burnt so severely, or one side had. And it was just, it was something odd, you know? I mean, I can't... I really don't know what to say about it because it was so... it's just something that doesn't happen every day. I wasn't allowed a mirror. (01:41:21)

[Charles Davis] : I'm going to say nobody told me how bad I looked. I just know I wasn't allowed a mirror so I could see myself. But I inadvertently found a mirror on the table tray that they have for the bed. And if I had to describe it, I look like a monster you'd see coming out of the marsh. You know, with the the algae and stuff hanging, like skin hanging and distorted. I remember it scared me. (01:41:49)

[Charles Davis] : I knew I was burnt bad when I saw that. And that's when I probably realized how severely hurt I was and burnt. I felt blessed I didn't have more scarring or scars that, you know what I mean? Absolutely. That show. Absolutely. I'm going to say I had a lot of good people that came to the hospital to check on me, to bring me gifts, well wishes, get well cards. You had people that just cared that a child had been burnt. (01:42:23)

[Charles Davis] : But it was a very supportive time. At the time I was burnt, I don't want to use the word horrified. The best word I could use was shock. I was just literally in shock. I'd never experienced or encountered anything like that before. What type of pain did you experience throughout this entire episode? I'm going to say I felt no pain at the time of the burn, but I'm going to say that was shock. What I remember is itching, wanting to just claw my flesh off because my skin itched so bad. (01:42:57)

[Charles Davis] : But I don't remember severe pain. I don't remember feeling like something was burning me, if that makes sense. I just knew something was wrong when it engulfed my body, that something was not right. It would almost be like a stranger kidnapping a child. Something grabbed me or engulfed me and it wasn't right and I wanted my grandmother or my mother. (01:43:19)

[David Marler] : It was like a small child looking for a parent, if that makes sense. Immediately after, let me ask you, how did this object depart? (01:43:29)

[Charles Davis] : I'm going to say I departed it, but I'm going to say I was in a state of shock. My grandmother was coming out the back of the laundromat, so she actually saw what happened. I remember being engulfed and I remember running and screaming for my grandmother forward. But I don't ever remember feeling heat or any burning sensation. I knew I was on fire when I got to my grandmother because she was trying to put my hair out, but I don't remember a sense of pain. But I'm contributing that to shock, you know, that your body's in shock. (01:44:07)

[Charles Davis] : But I don't know how, from the time it covered me until the time I got to my, the last thing I remember of the object is boom, it was on me. That's what I remember. After that, I just remember my main concern was getting to my grandmother because something was wrong. This is going to sound dumb, but I'm being very truthful. I had a sense that it knew me, and I don't mean no, but it was there for me. And I don't mean to like kidnap me or take me away, but when I saw it, I just knew something was wrong. (01:44:43)

[Charles Davis] : That was what caused me to move to the left, you know what I mean, to try to get out of it, you know what I mean, just to try to get out of, like being in the sight of a gun. I just wanted to get away from it. When I moved, it moved perfectly with my motion. I remember ducking behind a concrete little foundation thing, thinking I would hide from it. But when I stood back up, it was still there. (01:45:07)

[Charles Davis] : And it was, I'd move one more time to the other side, boom, it was on me. I'm going to, so it could have been 30 seconds, 45 seconds, but I'm going to say no longer than a minute. I remember whooshing once or twice. I can't tell you if it was when it was up in the air, but I remember my grandma said she heard whooshing, you know, slushing or whirling sounds. (01:45:29)

[David Marler] : And when you were engulfed in apparently the fire or the flame, were there any sense of smell that you can recall? I just remember feeling engulfed. (01:45:43)

[Charles Davis] : I don't remember feeling it burning me. The best I could describe, it's engulfed and maybe you're gasping for air because you have a lack of oxygen. I just knew when it engulfed me, something was wrong, real wrong. You know what I mean? Excuse my dumb terminology, not regular wrong, but serious wrong. And I needed to get out of this engulfment. And I just remember, like, somebody grabbed me, but nobody was grabbing me. I was just engulfed. (01:46:13)

[Charles Davis] : Yeah, I was engulfed. And there was an immediate panic. But in hindsight, and I'm being very sincere, I think I would have... I knew something was wrong when it... you know, you know something's wrong. But when it actually engulfed me, something was real wrong. I don't know how to describe that. I don't think I felt the sense that I was going to die, but I felt the sense I had to get away from it. I had to get away now, or it was going to be tragic. (01:46:48)

[Charles Davis] : But I felt no pain. I saw no fire. More than anything, I remember them telling me my face and my hair was on fire. But I don't remember feeling pain at that point. But I think I was in shock, to be honest with you. (01:47:03)

[Martin Willis] : Well, that's it for the clip. I call that a very credible witness myself. He has nothing to gain by this. Put it away. Dave found him. To me, I think it's a really interesting case. Again, no answer to it. I don't have an answer. I don't think anyone has an answer. But that's it for the show this evening. I do thank everyone for listening and hanging in. We got through our technical difficulties okay. (01:47:36)

[Martin Willis] : We made it. Next week, we have Kevin Knuth, UFO Science. He's got a Ph.D. in physics. It should be kind of a science-y show. It should be a lot of fun for those who like science. It will be entertaining. I somehow, I'm sure, will try to pull that off for the people that do not want to listen to technical stuff and science and stuff like that. But I do want to thank everyone that helps out with the show, behind the scenes and all. (01:48:06)

[Martin Willis] : I want to thank Peggy over at the Facebook page and people that work, again, behind the scenes helping me out at Palmer with some UFO stories. Sorry, I didn't get to any of them today. And there's so many people that do help out with the show and also support the show. And I'm very grateful for it all. And what a great Super Tuesday this has been. Thanks again, everyone. (01:48:32)

[Martin Willis] : And remember to keep your eyes to the sky. (01:48:35)

(2025-09-06)