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Joseph Atwill : キリスト教のローマ起源と反ユダヤ主義

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前置き​

Joseph Atwill : ローマ皇帝によるイエス創造の陰謀 に関連。

要旨​

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この文字起こしは、‌‌ヨセフ・アトウィル‌‌がホストと対話する‌‌テレビインタビュー‌‌の一部であり、彼の著書『‌‌シーザーの救世主‌‌』の主要な論点を概説しています。

アトウィルの中心的な主張は、‌‌キリスト教の福音書‌‌が、ユダヤ人との軍事的な闘争を鎮静化させ、ローマ帝国に協力的な‌‌平和主義的な代替宗教‌‌を作るために、‌‌フラウィウス家‌‌のローマ皇帝たちによって意図的に創作されたというものです。

彼は、イエスという人物が‌‌神話上の創作物‌‌であり、その生涯の出来事が‌‌ティトゥス・フラウィウス‌‌の軍事作戦を予見する‌‌タイポロジー（類型論）‌‌として機能していると論じています。

さらに、アトウィルは、福音書には‌‌反ユダヤ主義‌‌が意図的に組み込まれており、それが後のユダヤ人に対する‌‌憎悪‌‌を生み出すことを目的とした‌‌文学的な時限爆弾‌‌として機能したと述べています。

目次​

  1. 要旨
  2. 全体俯瞰
    1. 要旨
    2. 1. 主題：ローマ帝国による心理戦争としてのキリスト教
    3. 2. 文学的手法：タイポロジー（類型論）の解読
    4. 3. 主要な証拠：福音書とヨセフス『ユダヤ戦記』の並行関係
    5. 4. 反ユダヤ主義の意図的な創出
    6. 5. 含意と結論
  3. 基本テーゼ：『シーザーのメシア』
    1. 1. 基本テーゼ：『シーザーのメシア』の核心
    2. 2. タイタス・フラウィウスとの意図的な関連付け
    3. 3. 反ユダヤ主義の意図的な導入
    4. 4. 福音書の性質と影響
  4. 情報源
  5. 文字起こし（話者識別）

全体俯瞰​

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キリスト教のローマ起源説：ジョセフ・アトウィル氏の主張に関するブリーフィング

要旨​

本ブリーフィングは、ジョセフ・アトウィル氏が著書『シーザーズ・メサイア』および関連インタビューで提唱した、キリスト教の起源に関する革新的な論文を要約したものである。アトウィル氏の中心的な主張は、新約聖書の福音書が歴史的出来事の記録ではなく、ローマのフラウィウス朝カエサル家によって意図的に創作された政治的・軍事的な心理作戦であったというものである。

この論文によれば、福音書は、1世紀にわたってローマに抵抗していた戦闘的なユダヤ人メシア運動を鎮圧するために設計された。その目的は、ローマ帝国に協力的な、平和主義的なメシア像を提示する代替宗教を創設することにあった。イエス・キリストという登場人物は、歴史上の人物ではなく、神話的な文学的構築物であり、その宣教活動全体が、後の皇帝ティトゥス・フラウィウスのユダヤ戦争における軍事作戦を予言する「類型論的予言」として構成されているとされる。

アトウィル氏は、その証拠として、福音書とフラウィウス・ヨセフスの著作『ユダヤ戦記』との間に見られる、出来事の発生順序が一致する数多くの並行関係を挙げている。さらに、福音書には、フラウィウス家の個人的な憎悪から反ユダヤ主義が意図的に組み込まれており、ヨセフスの著作にはこの計画を告白していると解釈できる箇所が存在すると主張する。この論文は、キリスト教の起源、反ユダヤ主義のルーツ、そして西洋文明の根幹にある物語について、根本的な再評価を迫るものである。

1. 主題：ローマ帝国による心理戦争としてのキリスト教​

アトウィル氏の論文の根幹をなすのは、キリスト教がローマ帝国の政治的必要性から生まれたという見解である。

  • 歴史的背景: 1世紀のローマ帝国は、ユダヤ地方で活動する戦闘的なメシア主義ユダヤ人運動との100年にわたる闘争に直面していた。この運動は、ローマへの反乱の思想的基盤となっていた。彼らはメシア（ギリシャ語でキリスト）を信奉していたため、本来の意味では「クリスチャン」であった。
  • 戦略的目標: この抵抗運動に対抗するため、フラウィウス朝（ウェスパシアヌス帝とティトゥス帝）は、平和主義的でローマに税を納めることを是とする代替的なユダヤ教分派を創設することを決定した。これが、福音書に描かれるキリスト教の正体であるとアトウィル氏は主張する。
  • 「二種類のクリスチャン」: この理論は、なぜローマが「クリスチャン」を迫害しながらキリスト教を広めたように見えるのか、という歴史的矛盾を説明する。アトウィル氏によれば、ローマが迫害し、コロッセウムで殺害したのは、戦闘的なメシア主義ユダヤ人（本来の「クリスチャン」）であり、ローマが創作した平和主義的なキリスト教とは別のものであった。
  • 歴史の盗用: ローマが創作したキリスト教は、信憑性を持たせるために、実際のメシア運動の歴史を部分的に「盗用」した。例えば、使徒ペテロ（シモン）がローマで処刑されたという物語は、もともとはローマと戦った実在のユダヤ人指導者の歴史であり、それを福音書が自らの物語に取り込んだとされる。

2. 文学的手法：タイポロジー（類型論）の解読​

アトウィル氏は、福音書がその時代の特定の文学ジャンル、すなわち「類型論的予言」を用いて書かれていると主張する。これは、過去の人物や出来事（「類型」）が、未来の人物や出来事を予見するものとして描く手法である。

  • ジャンルの模倣: 福音書の著者たちは、死海文書の「ペシェル」に見られるようなユダヤ教の類型論的解釈の手法を意図的に模倣し、それを嘲笑する形で用いた。
  • モーセとイエスの類型論: 福音書を理解する鍵として、アトウィル氏はマタイによる福音書のイエス生誕物語を挙げる。この物語は、旧約聖書のモーセの物語と意図的に並行して構成されている。
類型論的要素モーセの物語（出エジプト記）イエスの物語（マタイによる福音書）
エジプトへの旅ヨセフがエジプトへ下るヨセフがエジプトへ下る
幼児虐殺ファラオによるヘブライ人の男児殺害ヘロデ王による幼児虐殺
帰還の告知「あなたの命を狙っていた者たちは死んだ」「あなたの命を狙っていた者たちは死んだ」
帰還エジプトからイスラエルへの帰還エジプトからイスラエルへの帰還
誘惑荒野でイスラエル人が神を試す荒野でイエスが悪魔に試される

この一連の出来事が同じ順序で発生することは、偶然ではなく意図的な文学的構築であることを示しており、モーセがイエスを予見する「類型」として設定されていることを明らかにしている。

  • イエスとティトゥスの類型論: アトウィル氏の論文の中核は、この類型論をさらに一歩進めたものである。すなわち、イエス自身が、ローマ皇帝ティトゥス・フラウィウスを予見するための文学的な「類型」として創造されたという主張である。フラウィウス朝自身が、ユダヤのメシア預言は自分たちを指していると公言していた史実（ヨセフスやスエトニウスの記録）が、この主張の背景にある。

3. 主要な証拠：福音書とヨセフス『ユダヤ戦記』の並行関係​

アトウィル氏は、福音書の物語が、フラウィウス・ヨセフスが記録したティトゥスの軍事作戦の出来事をなぞって、同じ順序で展開されていると主張する。これにより、『ユダヤ戦記』は事実上「第五の福音書」として機能する。

  • 明白な予言の成就: イエスが行った多くの予言は、ティトゥスの軍事行動によって文字通り成就している。
    • エルサレムの包囲: イエスはエルサレムが壁で囲まれると予言し、ティトゥスはそれを実行した。
    • 神殿の崩壊: イエスは「石が一つも崩されずに残ることはない」と予言し、ティトゥスは神殿を破壊した。
    • ガリラヤの町々への災い: イエスが災いを予言した特定の町々は、すべてティトゥスによって破壊された。
  • 「人の子」の到来: イエスは、これらの出来事が「人の子」（メシア）が到来する時代に起こると予言した。歴史上、これらの予言をすべて成就させ、かつ自身をメシアと主張した人物はティトゥス唯一人であった。
  • 象徴的な出来事の並行: 福音書における象徴的な出来事と、『ユダヤ戦記』に記録されたティトゥスの行動との間には、隠された並行関係が存在する。
    • 「人間を漁る漁師」: イエスの宣教の始まりは、ガリラヤ湖畔で弟子たちに「人間を漁る漁師にしてあげよう」と語りかける場面である。一方、ティトゥスの軍事作戦の最初の出来事も同じガリラヤ湖畔であり、そこで彼は文字通り「人間を漁った」（湖に逃げたユダヤ人を攻撃した）。
    • 順序の一致: これらの並行する出来事が、両方の文献で同じ順序で発生することが、両者が意図的に関連づけられていることの強力な証拠となる。アトウィル氏は、これはDNA鑑定のように、珍しい事象が長いシーケンスで同じ順序で現れることで関連性を証明するのと同じ論理であると述べている。

4. 反ユダヤ主義の意図的な創出​

アトウィル氏によれば、福音書に見られる反ユダヤ主義は偶発的なものではなく、フラウィウス家の個人的な憎悪から意図的に組み込まれたものである。

  • 個人的な動機: ティトゥスとその父ウェスパシアヌスは、ユダヤ戦争中に負傷した。特にティトゥスは左腕に後遺症が残ったとされ、この個人的な経験が、ユダヤ人に対する憎悪を福音書に反映させる動機となった。
  • 「血の呪い」: 「その血の責任は、我々と我々の子孫にある」というユダヤ人民衆の叫びは、物語がフィクションであるならば不必要な要素であり、著者たちの個人的な憎悪を反映している。
  • ヨセフスによる「告白」: アトウィル氏は、反ユダヤ主義の起源がローマにあることの決定的証拠が、ヨセフスの『ユダヤ戦記』第6巻201行から219行にあると主張する。
    1. 人間の過越の子羊: この箇所には、マリヤの息子である子供が「過越の子羊」として象徴的に描かれている（ヒソプの家、焼かれるなど、過越の子羊の規定に合致）。これは、イエス以外で唯一文学に登場する「人間の過越の子羊」であり、イエスとの明確な並行関係を示す。
    2. 言葉遊びによる計画の暴露: この子供を巡る記述には、ギリシャ語の巧妙な言葉遊びが含まれている。
    • 子供は「世界のための神話（mythos）」と表現される。
    • その子の死と食人は「残虐行為（misos）」と見なされる。
    • そして、この残虐行為がユダヤ人に対する「激しい憎悪（misos）」を生む。
    1. 結論: この一連の記述は、「マリヤの息子である過越の子羊（＝イエス）という神話は、ユダヤ人への憎悪を生み出すために創られた」という、ローマの計画の直接的な告白であるとアトウィル氏は解釈している。

5. 含意と結論​

アトウィル氏の論文が真実であるとすれば、その影響は計り知れない。

  • 文学的時限爆弾: アトウィル氏は、福音書の著者であるカエサル家は、この文学的仕掛けがいつか発見されることを見越しており、自らの知性と遺産を後世に誇示するために、この「時限爆弾」を仕掛けたと考えている。それは究極の虚栄心の発露である。
  • 文化的・地政学的影響: この論文が広く受け入れられれば、西洋史、宗教、そして現在のキリスト教徒とイスラエルの地政学的な同盟関係の基盤を揺るがす可能性がある。
  • 反ユダヤ主義の根源の解明: この情報がもたらす当惑にもかかわらず、アトウィル氏は、2000年にわたる反ユダヤ主義の悲劇的な歴史の根源を理解するためには、真実を知ることが不可欠であると主張する。
  • 検証可能性: 過去にもキリスト教のローマ起源を推測する学者はいたが、アトウィル氏の論文の独自性は、その主張が「検証可能」である点にある。福音書と『ユダヤ戦記』の並行関係は、その発生順序と文脈の類似性から、偶然の産物ではないことを客観的に示すことができるとしている。

最終的に、アトウィル氏は、福音書を宗教的文献としてではなく、特定のユダヤ文学を嘲笑し、カエサルの天才性を誇示するために書かれた、極めて洗練されたプロパガンダであり、虚栄心の産物であると結論付けている。

基本テーゼ：『シーザーのメシア』​

AI

ご提示いただいたソースは、Joseph Atwill氏の著書『シーザーのメシア（Caesar's Messiah）』の基本テーゼについて、キリスト教のローマ起源と反ユダヤ主義という大きな文脈の中で、詳細かつ具体的な主張を展開しています。

以下に、これらのソースに基づき、基本テーゼが何を言おうとしているのかを説明します。

1. 基本テーゼ：『シーザーのメシア』の核心​

Atwill氏の基本テーゼは、‌‌福音書はローマのシーザーの一族、フラウィウス朝によって創作された‌‌というものです。このテーゼの中心的な主張は以下の通りです。

  1. ‌‌イエスは神話的人物である‌‌：イエスという人物は、ヘラクレスのような‌‌神話的な登場人物‌‌であり、歴史上の人物ではない‌‌文学的構成物（literary construct）‌‌です。
  2. ‌‌軍事・心理作戦としての創作‌‌：福音書は、ローマ帝国に対するユダヤ人のメシア運動（軍事的なクリスチャン運動）との100年にわたる闘争を終わらせるために、‌‌軍事的な一種の心理作戦‌‌として作成されました。
  3. ‌‌目的は平和化と協力‌‌：その目的は、ローマ帝国に協力する‌‌平和主義的なバージョンの代替宗教‌‌を作り出し、ユダヤ人のメシア運動を鎮静化することでした。この新しい宗教の信者は、‌‌平和主義的になり、税金を支払う‌‌ことが期待されました。

2. タイタス・フラウィウスとの意図的な関連付け​

Atwill氏のテーゼの興味深い点は、福音書が単に平和主義的な救世主の物語であるだけでなく、ローマの将軍であった‌‌ティトゥス・フラウィウスの軍事作戦と直接的に結びついている‌‌という点です。

  • ‌‌イエスはタイタスの「型（Type）」である‌‌：イエスは歴史上の人物ではなく、‌‌タイタス・フラウィウスの型（type）‌‌として作成された文学的な構成物であると主張されています。フラウィウス朝のシーザーたちは、ユダヤ人のメシア預言が自分たちを予見していると主張しており、タイタスこそが‌‌真の神の子（real son of God）‌‌であると公言していました。
  • ‌‌タイタスの作戦の予型としてのイエスの働き‌‌：イエスの宣教におけるすべての出来事は、タイタスの軍事作戦の出来事に基づいており、実際には‌‌その作戦の予言‌‌の一種であったとされています。
  • ‌‌ジョセファスの『ユダヤ戦記』の役割‌‌：フラウィウス・ヨセフスが著した『ユダヤ戦記（Wars of the Jews）』は、タイタスの作戦の歴史であり、‌‌福音書の第5の書物、すなわちその基礎‌‌であると見なされています。
  • ‌‌類型学（Typology）の使用‌‌：福音書は、当時のユダヤ教文学の一ジャンルである‌‌類型学的預言‌‌（例：死海文書の『ペシャル』）を‌‌嘲笑する（mockery）‌‌ジャンルとして作成されました。彼らは、モーセの生涯がイエスの生涯を予見したように（イエス＝モーセの類型学）、‌‌イエスがタイタスの生涯を予見する‌‌ように意図的に構成した、としています。
  • ‌‌明確な証拠としての出来事の配列‌‌：イエスの宣教の始まり（ガリラヤの海での「人をとる漁師」）は、タイタスの作戦の最初の出来事と‌‌同じ場所、同じ出来事‌‌であり、これらが‌‌同じ順序‌‌で発生していることが、この関連性が偶然ではなく意図的なものである強力な証拠であると論じられています。
  • ‌‌預言の成就‌‌：イエスが公に行った預言（エルサレムが城壁で囲まれる、神殿が石一つも残らないほど破壊される、特定のガリラヤの町々への災い）は、すべてタイタスの作戦によって成就されました。このため、初期のキリスト教の学者は、イエスがタイタスの作戦の出来事を予言していたことを理解していたと述べています。

3. 反ユダヤ主義の意図的な導入​

Atwill氏によれば、新約聖書に見られる反ユダヤ主義は、平和主義的な宗教を作るために必然的だったわけではなく、‌‌フラウィウス朝がメシア運動に対して抱いていた個人的な憎悪‌‌から生み出されたものです。

  • ‌‌憎悪の原因‌‌：タイタスの父であるウェスパシアヌスとタイタス自身が戦争中に負傷しており、この個人的な経験が福音書に反映された憎悪を生み出したとされています。
  • ‌‌ユダヤ人の歴史の盗用‌‌：福音書の作成の一要素は、‌‌実際の軍事的メシア運動の歴史を盗み‌‌、それをローマが管理するキリスト教の歴史とすることで、歴史的根拠において信憑性を持たせることにありました。
  • ‌‌反ユダヤ主義の証拠：ヨセフス『ユダヤ戦記』の特定の箇所‌‌：反ユダヤ主義がローマ人の発明であることの最も単純な証拠として、ヨセフスの『ユダヤ戦記』第6巻201行から219行の箇所が挙げられています。
    • この箇所は、‌‌人間の過越の小羊（人身供犠）‌‌の物語（イエスと明確に類似している）を記述しており、さらに‌‌巧妙なホモフォニー（同音異義語）の言葉遊び‌‌を用いて、この神話（mythos）がユダヤ人に対する‌‌激しい憎悪（bitter hatred, misos）‌‌を生み出すように設計されたことを示しています。
    • この神話（イエスの神話）は、人々がユダヤ人を憎むように仕向けるための‌‌文学的な操作‌‌である、と結論づけられています。
  • ‌‌福音書の記述（ピラトと群衆）‌‌：福音書にある有名な場面（ユダヤ人の群衆がポンティウス・ピラトにイエスを引き渡すよう要求し、「その血は我々と我々の子孫の上にかかる」と叫ぶ箇所）は、もし虚構であるならば、わざわざ記述する必要はないものであり、フラウィウス家がメシア運動に対して感じていた個人的な憎悪の現れであると解釈されます。

4. 福音書の性質と影響​

Atwill氏は、福音書を「宗教的な文学」ではなく、‌‌シーザーの天才ぶりを見せつけるために書かれた「虚栄心の作品（vanity piece）」‌‌であると断じています。

  • ‌‌文学的な時限爆弾‌‌：この文学作品は、最終的にキリスト教の真実が発見されたときに、文化的な大災害を引き起こすように設計された「‌‌文学的な時限爆弾‌‌」であると表現されています。
  • ‌‌真実の価値‌‌：Atwill氏は、このテーゼが広まれば、特にイスラエルの建国以来の地政学的状況において、文化的な移行は非常に困難になるだろうと認めつつも、反ユダヤ主義的な出来事を防ぎ、人々が宗教的視点について人生を異なって生きる機会を与えるために、‌‌いかなる状況下でも真実を知る方が良い‌‌と主張しています。

これらの主張を通して、ソースは『シーザーのメシア』の基本テーゼが、キリスト教はローマ帝国による意図的かつ巧妙な文学的創作物であり、その目的は政治的な支配、軍事的な平和化、そして反ユダヤ主義の確立であった、と説明しています。

情報源​

動画(55:42)

TV Interview with Joseph Atwill - The Roman Creation of Christianity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcro8yvAfwM

文字起こし（話者識別）​

展開

（以下は "TV Interview with Joseph Atwill - The Roman Creation of Christianity" と題された動画の文字起こしです。）

[host] : Shalom, and welcome to Roda Femet, Pursuer of Truth. This is Bracha Bat Yosef. And we are here today discussing the roots of anti-Semitism. And we have with us again Mr. Joseph Atwill, who wrote a book called Caesar's Messiah, which deals with the Roman origin of Christianity. And I'm glad to have Mr. Atwill back. Thank you for being here again. (00:00:51)

[Joseph Atwill] : Thank you for inviting me. (00:00:52)

[host] : And for those of the viewers who've missed out the first couple of episodes of this, I'd like you to briefly go into the background of your book, Caesar's Messiah. What is the main thesis of your book? (00:01:10)

[Joseph Atwill] : I'm happy to do that. The main thesis is simply that the Gospels were created by a group of Roman Caesars, the Flavians. And that the character Jesus essentially is a mythologic character like Hercules. The Gospels were created because the Flavians had been engaged in a hundred year, well the entire war took a hundred years, struggle with a messianic movement of Jews in Israel. And they decided to create an alternative religion that would be a pacifistic version of that would cooperate with the Roman Empire. So that is the basic thesis of the book is that the Gospels were produced by Rome and were done so as a kind of military, you know, psychological operation. (00:02:15)

[Joseph Atwill] : That's the primary thesis. But perhaps a more interesting aspect of the book is that the Gospels themselves are not simply the story of a pacifistic Messiah, but in fact are directly linked to Titus Flavius's military campaign. In other words, all of the events of Jesus's ministry are based upon the events of Titus's campaign. And were in fact a kind of prophecy of that campaign. (00:02:50)

[host] : I see. Okay. Well, can you give us a little more background on the war between the Romans and the Jews? Sure. (00:02:58)

[Joseph Atwill] : The war began because the Jews refused to worship Caesar. Throughout the Roman Empire, every imaginable kind of religion was permitted. The only exception to that was you had to permit the worship of Caesar in the temples. The Jews, because of their monotheistic background, just couldn't abide with this and kicked the images of Caesar out of their temple. And then this led to Nero inviting or ordering Vespasian into Judea and to subdue the Messianic movement. So the first point that someone really has to recognize, and it's strangely not well understood by the general populace, is that there was a Messianic movement in Palestine at the time that Christianity is supposedly emerging, which is completely militaristic. (00:04:03)

[Joseph Atwill] : It was the basis of the rebellion against the Roman Empire. And this point is critical in understanding the era and understanding the religious context that Christianity comes from. Because the people in this movement were Christians in the sense that they followed a Christ. The word Christ simply means Messiah. So that when, for one thing, when you discussed Christians being taken to Rome and killed in the Colosseum, when people criticize my theory, one of the things that they often bring up is that, look, the Romans were attacking the Christians. They were killing the Christians. How could they possibly be promoting Christianity? And the reason they even ask the question is because they are sort of unfamiliar with the history, that there was a movement of Christians that was militaristic, that the historians of the era record as having been captured, being brought to Rome, and actually killed in the Colosseum. So that's the real Christian-Roman relationship, is one of a military movement and an occupying army. (00:05:18)

[host] : So you're saying that the Christians who were persecuted were the messianic Jewish movement? (00:05:25)

[Joseph Atwill] : Exactly. And you can see in your question that it's difficult even to talk about it because of the semantical problem of what the word Christian means. But that's exactly what I'm saying, is that one of the elements of the creation of Christianity that the Roman Jews was to essentially steal the history of the real messianic movement. In my book, I show that, for example, the Apostle Simon or Peter, his history being taken to Rome and being executed, is actually stolen in the Christian Gospels. They take that character and make him an apostle of the Christ, and at the end of the Gospels, Jesus predicts that Simon is going to be taken to Rome and given a death to glorify God. And this is literally true, but the individual that he's speaking to is not, at that particular moment anyway, a Roman Christian, but he's one of the Jewish Christians who is in fact fighting against Rome. The Gospels are very delicate literature, very, very finely tuned literature. (00:06:44)

[Joseph Atwill] : One of the purposes is to try to absorb the history of the real messianic movement and make it the history of Christianity that is being controlled by Rome, so that it looks more believable in terms of its historical basis. Okay, so who were the apostles? These are images, literary images, of the Maccabees. If you look at the names of the apostles, you'll see that the names of the Maccabees pop up. You have Simon, John, Judas, Matthew. And what the Gospels are doing is they're trying to show that this history of the Maccabees, who were essentially the family that was leading the struggle against Rome, became these docile, pacifistic followers of the, you know, the Prince of Peace. The purpose of the Gospels is, on one level, is to simply try to pacify the messianic movement, which was militaristic. (00:07:51)

[Joseph Atwill] : And so that's why they borrowed these histories. They kind of, you know, they used some of the truth, and then they also added on the version of reality that they wanted, so that the eventual followers of the religion would be pacifistic and pay their taxes. (00:08:08)

[host] : Okay, well, you know, I happen to have caught your radio debate with Dr. Robert Price, and he seems to think that, well, yes, there are a lot of parallels in the Gospels to other extra-biblical literature, but basically that the New Testament is a compilation of myths which have evolved over a period of time. And you contend that this compilation was not a mere compilation, but a deliberate construct. Can you go into detail about that? (00:08:53)

[Joseph Atwill] : Sure, I'll give a couple examples. You'd have to actually go through the book to come to, you know, a completely coherent understanding of this, because it's a very large literary system that we're dealing with. But the events in Jesus's ministry are related to Titus's campaign and, in fact, are a kind of prophecy of it. And so that's, you know, another of the areas that you really have to understand. One of the reasons the Gospels is not, unfortunately, understood at this point is people don't understand the genre of literature that it is. (00:09:35)

[Joseph Atwill] : And this is strange because it is essentially presented right at the beginning of the Gospels. Most people who read the Gospels, in fact, many, you know, Bible students or Bible scholars are not familiar with what is called typology, even though it was a technique that was widely understood in the first couple centuries by Christian fathers. In Matthew, you have a real good example of typology. And I would ask everyone who wants to understand the Gospels to sort of spend some time with the birth narrative of Jesus to understand the typology that it represents. In the birth, you know, narrative in Matthew, which begins the Gospels, you start out with Joseph going down to Egypt. And this, in fact, is linking to the story in the Old Testament regarding Moses, where in Genesis you have, you know, the passage where Joseph, a Joseph, goes down to Egypt. These aren't complete parallels, but there is information being exchanged between the two so that there is an unusual parallel. (00:10:49)

[Joseph Atwill] : You have different contexts, different events going on, but there is this, these facts remain that in both these stories, a Joseph goes down to Egypt. But then you start having some very specific parallels. You have a massacre of the innocents in both the Matthew story and in the story of Moses. And then you have a very specific sentence, which states that they are dead who sought your life. And then this is followed by a return from Egypt to Israel, a baptism event, and then you have the tempting of God. And in the Gospels, you have Jesus in the wilderness, when you have the temptation of bread, and do not tempt the Lord thy God. And, you know, there's this very specific sequence of temptations. (00:11:37)

[Joseph Atwill] : And in the story of Moses, you have the exact same events occurring conceptually. God is tempted by the Israelites in a very specific way. And so this is, you know, I know this is kind of complicated material, but the point of it is really very simple. They're just showing that the life of Moses was foreseeing the life of Jesus, that the first Savior of Israel, his life foresaw the life of the second Savior of Israel, Jesus. And this is a typologic prophecy. (00:12:10)

[Joseph Atwill] : The Dead Sea Scrolls has a number of example in their peshers of the same genre. You have this, a type is created, which then foresees what is going to occur in the future. Can you explain to everybody what a pesher is? It's just an interpretation of Scripture, so that the secret of the pesher, secret of the Scripture, is revealed by someone who's doing a, an interpretation of it. And the Dead Sea Scrolls, you have probably the most famous is the Habakkuk pesher, where the author of the pesher is looking in the story of Habakkuk, and he's seeing parallels between what was written about Habakkuk and an individual that he refers to as the righteous teacher. (00:12:54)

[Joseph Atwill] : He's seeing that there are these parallels showing the foreseeing of the life of the righteous teacher in the Scriptures. And this was the genre that the Gospels were created as a mockery of. So the very first thing you have to do, if you want to understand the Gospels, is you have to understand the, the kind of typology that the literature is a mockery of. And you can do that by, by either reading the, the, you know, sort of the Dead Sea Scrolls peshers, which are sort of complicated. But more simply, it's just by going to, to Matthew and looking at the birth narrative and comparing it to the story that it is based upon in Genesis and Exodus. When you see that, when you see the relationship, you'll understand what a type is, that, that Moses is the type that foresees the life of Jesus. And my thesis shows, and attempts to show, that, that Jesus then was created as a type. (00:13:58)

[Joseph Atwill] : What the character of Jesus really is, is not a historical character, but he is a literary construct that was created as a type of Titus Flavius, who, who was the real son of God. Now, this may seem like a really far-fetched idea, but you have to remember that the Flavian Caesars claimed to be the Messiah. They, they claimed that the Jewish Messianic prophecies foresaw them. This was actually written in both Josephus and Suetonius. They recorded the fact that the Messianic prophecies foresaw these specific Caesars. So, the, the notion that Jesus is foreseeing Titus, who is the real Messiah, is not at all far-fetched. (00:14:48)

[Joseph Atwill] : It just requires that you actually recognize sort of these basic historical realities. (00:14:53)

[host] : Weren't there other characters that, that Jesus was based on? Or were there other Jesuses? (00:15:01)

[Joseph Atwill] : There were a whole series of Christs during this, this era. And, and you get into, you know, the Gospels are complicated. And in, in my book, I go on, on, I show the most basic level of them as the, the fact that Jesus is a, his ministry is a type of Titus Flavius. But in fact, it also looks forward to another Messiah, who is a, who is a Jewish one who appeared doing, during the Jewish, the Jewish war, whose name is Eliezer. But at that point, you're in some very sophisticated typology. (00:15:35)

[Joseph Atwill] : And it's, in a show like this would be sort of be hard to get into it. I would just recommend if people are curious about that to read, read the book. They, but the really simple truth that people can see, you know, as far as identifying Jesus and as a type of Titus Flavius, you know, the most simple one is just to go to the, start with the beginning. And Jesus says at the Sea of Galilee that, you know, you, you, you will be fishers of men. (00:16:04)

[Joseph Atwill] : And if you begin to read Titus's campaign in Josephus, you'll see that his first event is at the same location and it's the same event. He fishes for men at the, at the Sea of Galilee. And this then starts a, a long series of events that, that are go through Jesus's ministry and are, and are replicated in Titus's campaign. And once you can, once you see the conceptual relationship, which is of course hidden, it's not completely overt. You have to have a little bit of thinking, but once you see it, you'll recognize it's deliberate because it's occurring in the same sequence. (00:16:38)

[Joseph Atwill] : In other words, the most, most transparent aspect of the Jesus Moses typology, the thing that makes it so visible is that the events that are linked are occurring in the same sequence. If you, if you look at literary parallels, like the, that are circumstantial, for example, the famous ones between Lincoln and Kennedy, they don't occur in the same sequence. They, they simply can't because they're, if they are accidental, then they are subject to the rules of probability concerning random events and they have to just occur at random. So when you have sequences of unusual events, this is highly unusual and strongly suggestive that you've got a deliberate pattern, not an accidental one. (00:17:20)

[Joseph Atwill] : This is why DNA testing enables people to be put into prison is because when you have unusual events, and in that case, it's one times out of four, and if they occur over a long sequence in the exact same order, you know that one sample is from the same person as the other sample was taken from. Well, that shows you that the Jesus-Moses typology is deliberate and you'll, anyone who reads the book and sees how vivid the parallels are and how absolutely clear cut they are will recognize that, that the relationship between Jesus and Titus is non-accidental and it's, that it's a deliberate literary event. (00:17:57)

[host] : Titus' military campaign as told to us through War of the Jews by Flavius Josephus is a mirror of the New Testament. (00:18:07)

[Joseph Atwill] : It's the basis of it. The Gospels, you have the four, you know, books in the Gospels, but there's actually a fifth book to the Gospels, and that's the Wars of the Jews, which is the history written by Flavius Josephus of Titus' campaign. And what's interesting is that that book, though, it's no longer recognized essentially as part of the canon, was attached to some of the very early versions of the, of the Gospels. They actually had the Josephus work with them. (00:18:40)

[Joseph Atwill] : And, and the reason they did that is because the early Christian scholars recognized that all of Jesus' prophecies, his overt prophecies, are coming to pass in the war that Titus waged against the Jews. In other words, Jesus says, hey, I'm going to, I foresee Jerusalem encircled with a wall. Very specific event, you know, encircling a city with a wall. Very unusual, you know, it's not totally unusual, but it's, it's reasonably unusual. And yet Titus accomplishes that. (00:19:15)

[Joseph Atwill] : Jesus sees that the temple is raised. He says, I see not one stone atop another. Titus essentially, you know, levels the, the, the temple. He predicts woe for very specific Galilean towns. Titus levels all of those towns. So the overt prophetic relationship between the Jesus' ministry and Titus' campaign was understood from, you know, very early on that, that, hey, everything that Jesus is predicting, Titus is bringing about. And Jesus says that this is all going to come to pass, all of these events, these, this apocalypse, apocalyptic sequence of events that he, that he envisions, is all going to come about during the time when the Son of Man makes a visitation. (00:20:07)

[Joseph Atwill] : And he's using the expression the Son of Man in, in the context that Daniel uses it, which is as the Messiah. So you have, you know, from the very early beginnings of Christian scholarship, you have an understanding that Jesus was predicting the events of Titus' campaign. And you also have, from the historians of the era, the, you know, clear-cut declaration that Titus saw himself as the Messiah. So it's, that Titus was simply the only individual in history that could have been the Son of Man that Jesus was envisioning. (00:20:49)

[Joseph Atwill] : It probably couldn't have been Jesus because he didn't show up to actually, at least to date, to work any of these events. But Titus did. Titus fulfilled all of the events that the Son of Man was supposed to have brought about during his visitation. And Titus flatly claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. So when you start out with that understanding, which unfortunately is not an understanding that is widely known, even, you know, by Christian scholars at this, at this point. But when you start out with these things, which are completely clear-cut and which are demonstratable to anyone, then you look at the relationship, the conceptual relationship between Jesus' ministry and Titus' campaign. (00:21:30)

[Joseph Atwill] : And it is completely crystal clear that the literature of the Gospels was created to envision the Titus' campaign and to proclaim him as the Jewish Messiah. (00:21:44)

[host] : Okay, let's go further into the anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Was, was this, so Titus can be successful in his campaign? What was this about? (00:22:03)

[Joseph Atwill] : The anti-Semitism, in my mind, was created out of very personal reasons. And it didn't have to be. In other words, it would have been possible to have developed a pacifistic version of Judaism that wasn't so specifically anti-Semitic as the Gospels are. In the Gospels, you know, you have the famous passage where a mob is demanding that Pontius Pilate give them Jesus. And when he says, okay, you know, I will, I will do this, but I consider him just, you know, and the mob of Jews cries out, well, his blood will be on our hands and on our children's hands. All right. (00:22:45)

[Joseph Atwill] : Well, if it's fiction, why would you need to put that in there? And the reason, in my mind, is, is just out of the personal hatred that the Flavians felt for the Messianic movement. Historians record that both Vespasian, Titus's father, and Titus were wounded during the war. Titus evidently never regained full use of his left arm. He took a stone to it during some battle. And so it was in that context of a, of the, of a Caesar, you know, who were among the most egomaniacal individuals, at least as far as we can tell, who've ever lived, having been wounded, you know, having been physically wounded. And it was in that context that the gospels were written. (00:23:34)

[Joseph Atwill] : So that, that was that the hatred of, of the Jews that the gospels reflect is a, you know, simple reflection of the, the fact that the people who were, you know, responsible for the work being created were so anti-Semitic. And... Well, well, what, where's the proof that this was deliberate anti-Semitism? Right. Well, the, the simplest proof, and it's one that anyone who, you know, is listening to this show can, can simply do themselves, is in fact, Josephus, in, in, in his, in his history of, of the war, which links to the gospels, created a passage which flatly declares the, the basis and the fact that anti-Semitism is an invention of the Romans. What you can do, what a, what a viewer is able to do is simply go online, you don't have to buy the book, to a copy, an online copy of Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus, and go to the sixth book, line 201 through 219, and this would be either in the Wiston translation or in, in Perseus, which is a, a collection of online antiquity. (00:24:53)

[Joseph Atwill] : Go, go to book six, line 201 through 219, and you will see that the first half of the is a description of a human Passover lamb. The Passover lamb is a son of Mary, the location is Jerusalem. And you can see that the authors have created the Passover lamb in, using the same techniques that were found in the gospels. In other words, the child is flatly stated to be a sacrifice. He is from the house of hyssop, and he is roasted. (00:25:34)

[Joseph Atwill] : Now, it takes a little bit of understanding of, of the gospels to, to recognize the symbolism, but in the, in the gospels, they combine hyssop with one of the instructions for the preparation of the Passover lamb, which is that you don't break the bones of it. In the Gospel of John, the, the soldier marks Jesus with a rod of hyssop, and then you have the statement that they don't break his bones. So you know that the author has established him as a symbolic human Passover lamb, and this links back to Jesus' statement saying, you know, if you don't eat of my flesh, there'll be no life in you. (00:26:12)

[Joseph Atwill] : This very unusual cannibalism language, which is in the gospels, and of course is not a reflection of anything in Judaism, but is in the gospels for some particular reason. Well, if you then look at the passage in Josephus that I mentioned, you'll see that this son of Mary, who is a sacrifice, is, is from the house of hyssop, which is even a clear metaphorical relationship to the actual Old Testament use of, of hyssop with the Passover lamb, and is stated that he is roasted, which was the other instruction regarding the preparation of the Passover lamb. (00:26:51)

[Joseph Atwill] : So if you have any, you know, doubts, you can simply dial up a rabbi and ask him, what is the roasted sacrifice of the house of hyssop? And you'll see, or any, any Jew who, someone who's familiar with their, their canon, they'll know, oh, that, that is the Passover lamb. So, so this child in, in Josephus is a perfectly transparent parallel to Jesus. He is a human Passover lamb. And whereas Jesus states that you must eat the flesh in order of, you know, in a cannibalistic sense, this child is actually eaten by his mother. (00:27:26)

[Joseph Atwill] : So you have here two really obvious passages that are related because these are the only human Passover lambs, you know, that I've ever encountered in literature. It's, there's only, you know, so many concepts that you can use to set up a human Passover lamb. And, and, and so the idea that they would occur circumstantially is, you know, far-fetched and they're both flatly stated to be the son of Mary in the location of Jerusalem. Okay. So now you then move on in the passage in Josephus and you'll see that the second half of the passage describes what the effect of this character is going to be upon the Jews. And you have one of the most brilliant pieces of wordplay in literature. (00:28:12)

[Joseph Atwill] : And, and I wrote about this in, in one of my online discussions. And I said that you have to give the devil his due because it's very witty. They, in Josephus, the child is described as a myth for the world. This child is a myth for the world. And they use the Greek word mythos, whose eating and killing will be seen as an atrocity. And they use the Greek word misos. And then this atrocity will then create bitter hatred, misos, of the Jews. So in other words, what this triple homophonic wordplay with this subtly, you know, shifting, just a single letter being, you know, taken out of each of the words as you move through the process. (00:29:07)

[Joseph Atwill] : What it indicates is that, that the son of Mary, who is a Passover lamb is a myth and a myth for the world, who's going to be seen as an atrocity, whose death and eating will be seen as an atrocity, and that this will create bitter hatred of the Jews. Now, to combine that description of what actually occurred in history, right, to combine that statement with the only other than the gospel's creation of a literary human Passover lamb, I mean, you can argue that it's circumstantial, but this would just be so far-fetched that it's, in my mind, it's really not even something you'd want to consider in a rational context. (00:29:52)

[Joseph Atwill] : And I've written that it is not just a bad analytic technique of the contemporary, you know, gospel and Bible scholars that this passage isn't, you know, understood in this way. It is just a complete breakdown in human intelligence. I mean, this is so clear-cut that to not investigate it within the framework that I suggest is just crazy. And I would ask that any reader, you know, who thinks that the thesis that I present is far-fetched, to simply take the five minutes it would take to dial Josephus up online, The Wars of the Jews, go to this passage, read it, and look at both the description of the human Passover lamb who's the son of Mary, and of the very sophisticated wordplay which indicates that this is going to be, this myth of the world is going to create the bitter hatred of the Jews, and not, you know, agree that this is, that my interpretation is the correct way to understand this passage. (00:30:59)

[Joseph Atwill] : The other thing that is important to recognize, and you'd have to read Caesar's Messiah to understand this, is that this event is also within a framework of events. This event is not simply just some sort of standalone event that just pops up in the middle of Wars of the Jews, but that this event is occurring in a pattern. Remember, I had originally talked about the fishing of men that begins Jesus's ministry and also Titus's campaign. Well, the episode of the son of Mary who's a Passover lamb, that event is occurring between the crucifixion of, you know, it leads up to the crucifixion of three individuals and one person brought down from the cross who survives. (00:31:40)

[Joseph Atwill] : In other words, this event is within a framework of concepts which are parallel in both the Wars of the Jews and the Gospels that occur in the same sequence. (00:31:50)

[host] : Okay. Were there any other extra biblical references to this besides from Flavius Josephus that lead you to believe that this was meant as anti-Semitism? (00:32:05)

[Joseph Atwill] : Well, I mean, some of the most famous are, of course, the speech by Eliezer at Masada in which he takes a position that the destruction that the Jews experienced was brought about by God because of the fact that they were wicked. In other words, if you look at Jesus's perspective of Jews, he always talks of them in the context of a wicked generation, right? Now, a generation is 40 years and this, of course, would encompass exactly the right time frame to overlap with the military campaign of Titus Flavius from 30 through 70 and from 33 through 73. These are the exact, you know, time spans that would show that the Gospels are linking to the war. (00:33:02)

[Joseph Atwill] : But in Eliezer's speech, you have this, you know, repetition of the wickedness of the Jewish rebels, which, of course, is a very clear parallel to Jesus's perspective. Jesus is looking into the future and saying that they're going to be wicked. Eliezer is talking as a character from history saying we were wicked. So, in other words, Jesus's words were really Eliezer's words. Well, they're all coming from the same perspective. In other words, the authors of the speech of Eliezer is also the author of the Gospels, or at least they are a unified literary group who understand the same things and are creating the literature to have one particular idea that the wickedness of the Jews, which Jesus was constantly referring to, and he was saying you have to repent. (00:33:57)

[Joseph Atwill] : Well, what did they have to repent from? What was the sin? Jesus foresees the wickedness that brings about the destruction of the Galilean towns, the encircling of Jerusalem with a wall, and the raising of the temple. He sees the wickedness that brings that up. That's the rebellion. The Jews that Josephus is then writing about are all agreeing with Jesus that we were wicked. And then, of course, this again is confirmed by the passage that I mentioned earlier where Josephus just flatly states that we are creating a myth that is designed to bring about the hatred of the Jews. The myth is, of course, the myth of Jesus, and that myth is confirmed by the history. (00:34:41)

[Joseph Atwill] : We shouldn't take either one of them seriously, neither the Gospels, nor really Josephus' description of what goes on in Wars of the Jews. This is not a history we're dealing with. It's a literary operation to try to make people hate Jews, and of course, at one level, and also confine the real messianic movement on the other. Okay. (00:35:06)

[host] : Well, this is all very interesting, and I was wondering, why do people place such importance on the works of Flavius Josephus, and that Jews have gotten their history from the works of Flavius Josephus? (00:35:25)

Sure. (00:35:26)

[Joseph Atwill] : Well, unfortunately, the real voice of the messianic movement was destroyed. In Wars of the Jews, Josephus records that the law, or that is the written scripture of the militaristic Jews, was brought into the Flavian palace, and locked up, and kept there. And, of course, until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, they'd never found any actual Jewish material. Even though this was a literate population, it appears to me that the Romans simply destroyed all of the literature. And then that's why the Dead Sea Scrolls were found buried hidden in caves, because they were trying to preserve some of the scripture, and were able to do so. (00:36:15)

[Joseph Atwill] : But the Gospels were put into an area, or were being in circulation, in a form where they wouldn't have to compete against the actual messianic scriptures. That was being destroyed systematically by Rome, and the Gospels were then something that would replace it. (00:36:36)

[host] : Knowing that there's so much anti-Semitism in the New Testament, there are... I mean, the Jews and the Christians have been allied with each other for a long time now, and it's kind of very unfriendly thing to do, to bring about these facts now, and telling Christians that their religion is a military campaign, and political propaganda. I mean, really, I mean, what would you have to say about that? (00:37:08)

[Joseph Atwill] : Right. Well, it's a great question, and I can't pretend to have a good answer to it. I would suggest that the transition culturally, if my thesis becomes widely held, which I expect it will, ultimately, will be very difficult. Because it's such a transition of our understanding of ourselves, of our history, as well as our religion, particularly since the formation of Israel, will be challenged by this information. As the geopolitics currently line up, you have Islam essentially in opposition to a unified Christian and Israeli community, in some ways. (00:37:59)

[Joseph Atwill] : Not in every case, but in some ways. And so, something like this information can be threatening, I think, particularly to people who see that alliance as important. But I would point out that if you look at, for example, The Passion, a movie by Mel Gibson, you'll see that the problem with The Passion was not that it was an anti-Semitic endeavor, but that it was a very accurate endeavor. In other words, the story it told is really the story that the Gospels tell. (00:38:33)

[Joseph Atwill] : And that story is very powerful and has been really what was responsible for the anti-Semitism that has been a 2,000 year burden upon that people. So, even though there is a tactical situation currently that makes this especially awkward, this information, I would just say if you look with the long view, you'll see that everyone would be better off with an understanding of the truth. And I would also point out, because I'm asked this all the time, and let me just give an example. Two of the very first people that I ever discussed my book with, once it was made public and people started reading it, were Christians that had contacted me and both were terminally ill. (00:39:25)

[Joseph Atwill] : And they were very much using their religion as part of what was helping them go through the process. And they had read my book, and both of them came to the conclusion that it was either correct or seemed like it was correct. And they contacted me and exchanged information. And it was extremely painful to go through the process of what my book really means to someone who's a Christian, who's experiencing this crisis of faith as they're looking at their life fading away. But both of them came to the position that I hope is the one that everyone does, which is that in every case, we're simply better off knowing the truth under any circumstance. (00:40:13)

[Joseph Atwill] : It's very rare, and I don't think that certainly not in a situation like this, that we'd want to deceive ourselves. And the other reason that I think it's important for the information to come out is simply that it's valuable to Christians. Not all of them, of course, but there will be a group of Christians who are very interested in the origins of the religion. And for those individuals, I just felt that I really was required to bring out the information. (00:40:38)

[Joseph Atwill] : I couldn't keep it to myself because, you know, if I was a Christian, a practicing Christian, and I was not, though I had been raised a Christian, but at the time I had written the book, was writing the book, I wasn't. But if I had been, I would have expected an individual who knew this to inform me. (00:40:57)

[host] : Do you see any political implications to discovering your thesis? (00:41:03)

[Joseph Atwill] : It's one of these threads of the fabric of culture that once it begins to be pulled, just it's not possible to calculate what will unravel as a result. There's never been really anything like it. It is the Caesar who produced the literature wanted to have this enormous, you know, emotional, cultural disaster occur when the truth of Christianity would be discovered. In other words, the literature is a literary time bomb. And it's designed really to bring about legacy. (00:41:52)

[Joseph Atwill] : It has all these other purposes. You know, it was designed to pacify the Jews. It was designed to create anti-Semitism. But really, it's vanity. That's really what the literature is. It was, it's just like the Arch of Titus, this enormous physical structure was created to, you know, promote the legacy of a particular individual. The Gospels are meant to operate in the same way. And the fact that it's going to be this, you know, enormous reversal of our understanding of ourselves, that's what the individual wanted. They want that explosion because they want the legacy. (00:42:33)

[Joseph Atwill] : They want people to recognize how clever Caesar was to create this confusion. And it's, you know, the Gospels are going to eventually unravel. And it really does. I mean, now that the information is out, some scholars contest my thesis, others are supporting it. If you go on any of the many websites that discuss it currently, you'll see that there are, you know, people who like it and people who dislike it. But ultimately, I am certain that it will eventually be the, you know, the common understanding of the Gospels. Once the information has been brought out, it really can't ever be put back in the bottle. (00:43:18)

[Joseph Atwill] : And it's just a question of how long the process is going to take. As far as I'm concerned, it can take, you know, 2,000 years. I have no particular desire to be, you know, sort of an anvil for this information. But now that it's out, in little increments and drips and drabs, you know, just in different small ways at first, the people will start to recognize that the Gospels really aren't religious literature. They are a mockery of a particular genre of Judaic literature, typologic prophecy, and they are a vanity piece. (00:43:57)

[Joseph Atwill] : They're really written to show off Caesar's genius. (00:44:01)

[host] : Well, evidently, you have not been the first person to discover the Roman origin of Christianity. There have been others before you, but it's never been presented in the same way that you've presented these things in Caesar's Messiah. Do you think that this information that other people have done this and they've been called quacks, do you think you're going to be called a quack? (00:44:36)

[Joseph Atwill] : I already have been many times. There has been a lot of... a lot of scholars have speculated that Rome produced Christianity just because it's so historically logical. In other words, if you look at the history and you see that there is a messianic movement that's militaristic and then you see, well, in the midst of this hundred-year struggle, there is this pacifistic version of Judaism with all these strange Hellenistic attributes that pops up at just the right time, it's just very suspicious on its face. (00:45:01)

[Joseph Atwill] : And scholars have attacked it in that manner. The information that I present is something that is testable. It's a little difficult to test it, but like a high school history class, for example, could test that the parallel passages that I claim are deliberately linked will be detected by a random sampling of random readers. In other words, if you just give people 20 different passages to read from and then insert the one that I say is linked and then ask them, well, which one is the one that is linked to the passage in the gospel, you'll see that a very large fraction of people will recognize it. Well, this has to be the fishing for men episode in Titus' campaign. (00:45:45)

[Joseph Atwill] : It's got to be, you know, is the one that is linked. And this is very unusual. The idea that passages can be seen as parallel is not something that occurs all the time. It's very unusual. So the fact that these passages are occurring in the same sequence and in the same location and are recognizable by random sampling, I mean, it's very strong evidence. It's really hard to get around and it certainly sort of takes it outside of the area of contact or of quackery because it's testable. And this is what the people who came before me, who recognized that it was, you know, very logical that Rome would have produced this religion. (00:46:27)

[Joseph Atwill] : The fact that the Pope, you know, is the pontiff, which is the name of the head of the Roman College of Religion. The fact that Rome was the headquarters of the religion. I mean, all of these things are very suggestive of a Roman, you know, relationship to the origins of it. The very first saints, who were not apostles, were Flavians, were relatives of the Caesars. Flavia Domitilla, I mean, the very first catacomb. Even today, the inscription is actually still there, you know. (00:46:59)

[Joseph Atwill] : She gave this to the Christians as their catacomb. So you have this relationship between the Caesars and Christianity from the very beginning. But what I've done is I've actually shown stuff that is really testable. Very easy for history classes to go through, you know, the process I suggest and they can verify for themselves that the ministry of Jesus was deliberately linked to Titus' military campaign. And there's also just coherency. Just go to Josephus 6, 201 through 219. That's book 6, line 201 through 219, and read it. (00:47:38)

[Joseph Atwill] : And you'll see for yourself that it's a very straightforward declaration that Rome produced it. So as far as, you know, being called a quack, you know, so be it. In my debate with Dr. Robert Price, who never got down into, you know, name calling, in fact he kept calling me brilliant, but then he would say but, brilliant but, brilliant but, which is, you know, just sort of a way of dealing with a thesis that is hard to control, but you don't like. (00:48:20)

[Joseph Atwill] : He said that it was parallel mania. In other words, he just said that I was seeing metaphorical connections that didn't exist. And parallels, you know, can be weak in two ways. Again, this is, you know, very important stuff to know when you try to understand the Gospels and the relationship to Wars of the Jews. Parallels can be weak in two ways. They can either have no context, or they can have no coherency. In other words, they are simply so far apart in where they come from. (00:48:52)

[Joseph Atwill] : I mean, like a Walt Disney story with something you find written on a wall of a pyramid, you know. I mean, this context suggests that there's no connection because they're so distant historically and how could the, you know, people be, you know, accidentally linking them up. Are there no, they're not coherent. They just, you know, one person in a million sees the metaphorical connection. Well, in the case of the parallels I show, the context is completely clear. I mean, Titus claimed that he was the Jewish Messiah. He flatly declared it. (00:49:24)

[Joseph Atwill] : His historian, his official historian actually wrote it out, just flatly states he is the Messiah. So the idea that the Gospels are regarding him as a Messiah is, you know, could not be a more coherent context. And then as far as coherency, I'll just give you an example. The one that Dr. Price was focused on when he used the expression parallelomania was the fishing for men. And he took the position that the metaphorical relationship between Jesus's words was self-evident. In other words, that when Jesus says fishing for men, the only thing he can possibly be talking about is, you know, is going out and converting them to the new religion, right? (00:50:07)

[Joseph Atwill] : That's what he thinks the words are self-evidently meaning. Well, the fact is, my interpretation is the literal interpretation of the words. That what Jesus was actually referring to was literally fishing for men. You have to read the book to really understand how that, what that phrase means, but just the obvious way of interpreting the expression fishing for men is the way that I interpret it. The genius, part of the genius of the authors of the Gospels was that they were able to hide the truth in plain sight. In other words, when Jesus says fishing for men, he means it literally. (00:50:48)

[Joseph Atwill] : And when he says you have to eat of my flesh, he's not talking, you know, in the spiritual sense, but rather this is a literal expression which is referring to the events in the war in which there was cannibalism. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a gruesome reality when you begin to actually see what the meaning of the Gospels are, is. But the people who wrote it had a very rough humor. I mean, they had a very, very rough humor. (00:51:23)

[Joseph Atwill] : And one of the things that I suggest is I don't think my book really should be read by kids. I think it's just too rough. And I really don't recommend that people who are, you know, Christians and the faith is something that, you know, they experience in a positive way. I have no agenda, you know, as far as getting my book into these people's hands. I think if you're really interested in the origins of Christianity, if anti-Semitism is important to you, if you want to understand how anti-Semitism came about, or if you just are someone who really wants the truth and are uncertain of it, then I think my book has a tremendous amount to offer to you. (00:52:01)

[Joseph Atwill] : But other than that, the humor is very rough, and you should handle the information carefully. (00:52:07)

[host] : Well, I thank you very much for all this information. This may be even more information than we may want to know, because, you know, it's nice to think about, oh, Christianity is wonderful, it's poetic, it's beautiful literature, it conjures up some very interesting spiritual things. But when we realize that it's, you know, entirely meant to destroy Judaism and the Jews, then it's kind of frightening. And when I think about piecing together a lot of characters who have passed, and putting them together to make another character, it's kind of like creating a Frankenstein. (00:53:01)

[Joseph Atwill] : In a way. And in my opinion, it was a monster that got loose. I think that it's unlikely they really, the authors of the Gospels, would have envisioned it having, you know, as long-standing a run as the dominant religion of Western civilization. The problem is, of course, that Christianity became, you know, part of the method by which the ruling class was able to maintain power. And so once the feudal system, you know, was put in place, it was going to be very difficult to have Christianity budge. But, you know, this is just the circumstance we find ourselves in. (00:53:47)

[Joseph Atwill] : And all I can say is that it would be a tragic event if there were anti-Semitic episodes that could have been prevented with, you know, the dissemination of this information. And it would also, to my mind, be tragic if there were individuals who would have lived their life differently, as far as, you know, their religious perspective, if they had this information. I just, you know, I mean, I really believe that we're, you know, this is a fragile condition we find ourselves in, obviously, here on the planet. And we just need all the good information we can get, all the honest, real information we can get, to think clearly. (00:54:34)

[Joseph Atwill] : And I think we will think more clearly if we understand the truth about Christianity than we would have otherwise. Well, thank you very much. (00:54:41)

[host] : I really appreciate the fact that you've given me another interview. And I hope everybody will, you know, do some research on this and don't just take anyone's word for it. Do some research on this and look into this yourself. And I thank everybody for tuning in to Roda Femmett, Pursuer of Truth. And we are exploring the roots of anti-Semitism. I'm so glad that you've joined us. I am Bracha Bat-Yosef. And do come back again soon. (00:55:18)

[host] : Shalom. (00:55:20)

(2025-10-01)