Jacques Vallee (2025-05-02): UFO/UAP の謎と隠蔽工作

前置き

聞き手は Ross Coulthard で Jacques Vallee が語り手。

要旨

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ジャック・ヴァレが語るUAPの謎と隠蔽工作

ジャーナリストのロス・コールサートは、UAP研究の著名な専門家であるジャック・ヴァレにインタビューしています。‌**‌ヴァレの並外れた経歴は、数学、天体物理学、コンピューターサイエンス、ベンチャーキャピタル、そしてUAP現象の生涯にわたる研究を網羅しています。

‌‌ 彼とコールサートは、政府によるUAP情報の隠蔽、特に米国における機密保持の歴史について考察します。‌‌ヴァレは、UAP現象が地球外起源ではなく、異次元の、または地球内部の非人間的知性によって引き起こされている可能性が高いという、彼の多次元仮説を説明しています。

‌‌ 彼はまた、UAPが人間の意識と文化に与える影響、そして潜在的に悪意のある側面についても言及しています。‌‌この対談は、現象が提示する根深い謎、従来の科学的理解に対するその課題、そして現在進行中の研究と開示の重要性を強調しています。‌**‌ 彼らは、情報公開とUAPデータの研究を妨げるであろう潜在的な宗教的、およびその他の社会的な影響を議論しています。

目次

1. 前置き
2. 要旨
3. 概要
   1. 1. ジャック・ヴァレ氏の経歴とUAP研究への貢献
   2. 2. 米国政府によるUAP情報の隠蔽
   3. 3. UAPの性質に関するヴァレ氏の多次元仮説と「コントロールシステム」
   4. 4. UAPと宗教的・心理的側面
   5. 5. UAP研究の現状と課題
   6. 6. ヴァレ氏の個人的な見解と経験
   7. 結論:
4. ベンチャーキャピタルの経歴
   1. ベンチャーキャピタルキャリアの概要
   2. UAP研究との関連性
   3. 金融からの洞察とUAP現象への応用
5. 自身の UFO 目撃体験
6. 著書と仮説: "Anatomy of a Phenomenon"(1965): 初の UFO に関する科学書
7. 著書と仮説: "Passport to Magonia"(1969): 多次元仮説
8. 著書と仮説: "Invisible College & Wonders in the Sky": 多次元仮説の拡張
9. 著書と仮説: "Forbidden Science 6: Scatterd Castle(2010-2019を追跡)"
10. 著書と仮説: "Messenger of Deception(1970年代)" : UAP 遭遇は人間意識を操作するメカニズム
11. 超国家的な側面
12. 時系列
13. 主要関係者
14. 情報源
    1. 動画概要欄
15. 文字起こし（話者識別）

概要

AI

UAPの謎と隠蔽工作に関する詳細ブリーフィングドキュメント：ジャック・ヴァレ氏の見解

概要: 本ブリーフィングドキュメントは、著名なコンピューター科学者、ベンチャーキャピタリストであり、長年にわたり未確認異常現象（UAP）の研究に貢献してきたジャック・ヴァレ氏が、Ross Coulthard氏とのインタビュー「Jacques Vallée: Project Blue Book, space travel and military secrecy | Reality Check」において語った主要なテーマ、アイデア、重要な事実をレビューするものです。

ヴァレ氏はUAP現象に関する彼の多次元仮説、政府の隠蔽工作、現象の性質、そして今後の研究の方向性について詳細に語っています。

1. ジャック・ヴァレ氏の経歴とUAP研究への貢献

ジャック・ヴァレ氏は、コンピューター科学、ベンチャーキャピタリズム、そしてUAP研究の分野で傑出した人物です。

• 学歴と初期のキャリア: ソルボンヌ大学で数学の学士号、リール大学で天体物理学の修士号、ノースウェスタン大学でコンピューター科学の博士号を取得（1967年）。パリ天文台で天文学者として勤務し、1963年にはテキサス大学でNASA初の火星のコンピューター化された地図の共同開発に携わりました。スタンフォード研究所ではARPANET（インターネットの前身）にも貢献した、真のインターネットの先駆者です。(00:00:49 - 00:01:29)
• ベンチャーキャピタルでの成功: シリコンバレーで複数のベンチャーキャピタル企業を設立し、NASAのRed Planet Capitalなど、ハイテクノロジーの新興企業に焦点を当てました。Electronics for Imaging、サイバーナイフを開発したAcurae Systems、光ネットワークナノテクノロジーを使用するNeo Photonicsなど、数々の著名な投資を手掛けています。(00:01:29 - 00:02:26)
• UAP研究への関心: 1955年にポントワーズの自宅でUFOを目撃したことがきっかけでUAP研究に興味を持ち、1961年には未確認の逆行衛星が破壊される追跡テープを目撃したことでその関心を深めました。(00:02:26 - 00:02:26)
• 著名な研究者との協働: 米空軍のプロジェクト・ブルーブックの科学顧問であった天文学者J.アレン・ハイネック氏と協力しました。また、スピルバーグ監督の映画『未知との遭遇』に登場するフランス人科学者のキャラクターのインスピレーション源でもあります。(00:02:26 - 00:03:18)
• UAPに関する主要な著作と仮説:『現象の分析（Anatomy of a Phenomenon）』(1965年): UFOに関する初期の科学書の1つ。(00:03:18)
• 『マゴニアへのパスポート（Passport to Magonia）』(1969年): ヴァレ氏の代表作であり、UAPの多次元仮説を最初に提唱した書です。UAPが従来の時空間を超えた現実から発生する可能性を示唆し、従来の地球外生命体仮説に異議を唱えました。「この仮説、つまり、『不可視の大学（The Invisible College）』や『空の驚異（Wonders in the Sky）』といった著作で展開されたこの視点は、UAPを人類の意識と文化に歴史を通じて影響を与える複雑な現象の一部として位置づけている。」(00:03:18 - 00:03:49)

2. 米国政府によるUAP情報の隠蔽

ヴァレ氏は、米国政府がUAP関連情報を隠蔽しているという見解を多くの関係者が共有していることを示唆しています。

• UAP飛翔体回収プログラムの存在: ヴァレ氏の協力者である科学者や元情報当局者からなるグループ「ローン・スターズ」は、米国政府が「隠されたUAP飛翔体回収およびリバースエンジニアリングプログラム」を隠蔽していると当然のこととして考えています。(00:04:31 - 00:05:17)
• ヴァレ氏自身は、現場にいたわけではないため断定は避けていますが、これらの報告を行う人々を信頼していると述べています。「私は現場にいたわけではないが、これらの報告をしている人々を信頼している。」(00:10:18 - 00:10:18)
• 墜落物体に関する情報: 墜落した物体に関する情報は新しいものではなく、フランスでも昔から議論されていました。ロズウェル事件は1970年代にスタン・フリードマン氏の分析によって再び注目されましたが、初期の研究では現場での信頼できる証人が不足していました。(00:05:27 - 00:08:36)
• フランスの視点: フランス政府関係者や軍関係者も、米国がUAPの謎に関する知識を隠していると認識しています。しかし、その理由は異なります。
• 1960年代半ば、ヴァレ氏のメンターであるエメ・ミシェル氏がフランス空軍の担当者に米仏間の情報共有を打診したところ、米大使館の担当者から「世界では多くの悪いこと（戦争、ソ連との緊張など）が起こっており、皆の注意をそらすようなことは必要ない」と回答があり、協力は実現しませんでした。(00:10:51 - 00:13:55)
• GEPAN（フランス宇宙機関内のUAP調査機関）の設立: フランスが他国に先駆けてUAP調査のための公的機関GEPAN（後にSEPRA、現在GEIPAN）を設立した背景には、フランスの合理主義的な学術的伝統があります。しかし、設立当初は予算や意義について多くの論争がありました。(00:13:55 - 00:15:26)
• 1980年代半ばから後半にかけて、フランスの科学界の指導者たちは、米国がプロジェクト・ブルーブックを停止したことを理由に、UAP研究の継続に疑問を呈しました。しかし、世論の関心の高さを考慮し、「公衆に対する情報提供の義務」を果たすために研究を再開しました。「コンセンサスは、UFOにはおそらく何も存在しないだろうというものだった。そうでなければ、アメリカが何かをしているはずだからだ。しかし、一般の人々は非常に熱心であり、もし我々が何も行動を起こさなければ、一般の人々は我々がエイリアンを隠していると考えるだろう。だから、我々には公衆に対する情報提供の義務がある。」(00:16:36 - 00:17:24)
• データ隠蔽の事例:1993年11月、地中海で米国のRC-135 Elint航空機がUFOに遭遇した際、民間服の男たちがC-130でドイツから飛来し、乗組員全員にNDA（秘密保持契約）に署名させ、すべてのデータを押収しました。(00:38:13 - 00:39:51)
• 同様の事例として、米海軍艦艇がUFOに遭遇し、記録が取られた際にも、飛行機でやってきた男たちがデータを押収していったことが語られています。この際、権限を示す書類には署名がなく、セキュリティ規則の違反であると指摘されています。(00:43:09 - 00:44:30)
• ヴァレ氏はこのデータ隠蔽の仕組みについて「ある種の霧の層」と表現し、報告すると上官から問題になる可能性があるため、報告されないケースが多いと指摘しています。(00:42:18 - 00:43:09)

3. UAPの性質に関するヴァレ氏の多次元仮説と「コントロールシステム」

ヴァレ氏は、UAP現象を従来の地球外生命体仮説だけでは説明できない、より複雑なものとして捉えています。

• 多次元仮説（Interdimensional Hypothesis）: ヴァレ氏は『マゴニアへのパスポート』で多次元仮説を提唱しました。これは、UAPが異なる時代に異なる姿で人類に影響を与えてきたものであり、従来の地球外生命体仮説では説明できない矛盾（例：UAPの見た目が時代と共に変化しないこと）を解消できると主張しています。(00:28:04 - 00:30:29)
• この仮説は、UAPが地球外から来た物理的な存在ではなく、「非人間知性（non-human intelligence）」が次元を超えて、あるいは地球内部から作用し、心理的および文化的な変化を引き起こすためにサイキックな相互作用を利用している可能性を示唆しています。(00:27:31)
• 「コントロールシステム」としての現象: ヴァレ氏は、UAP現象が「人類の意識、文化、社会の進化に影響を与える意図的なメカニズム、一種のコントロールシステム」であると推測しています。「この仮説は、UAPが人類の意識と文化に歴史を通じて影響を与える複雑な現象の一部として位置づけている。」(00:03:49)
• UAPは既存のパラダイム（科学的唯物論や宗教的教義）に挑戦する形で現れ、人類が自身の存在論について考え、現実を問い直すことを促していると説明しています。(00:33:11 - 00:34:02)
• このコントロールシステムは、ナチスの強制収容所のような破壊的なものから、大学のような「学習センター」としても機能する可能性があると示唆しています。(00:34:55 - 00:37:02)
• コルム・ケレハー氏の仮説: ヴァレ氏と共にBASSプロジェクトに携わったコルム・ケレハー氏は、「古代の寄生的な知性が数千年間地球に存在している」という仮説を提示しています。この仮説は、「一部の人類は平均以上の洞察力を持ち、現象によって危険視される特定の遺伝子プールに属しており、彼らだけがコントロールシステムに対抗できる」と述べています。(00:24:25 - 00:25:29)
• ヴァレ氏はこの仮説がグループでの多くの議論の成果であるとし、科学においては仮説を立て、それを検証するための研究を設計することが重要であると述べています。(00:25:29 - 00:26:39)
• 光速の限界の再考: ヴァレ氏は、アインシュタインの光速の限界に関する理論が物理学の限界ではなく、数学的な限界である可能性に言及し、エリック・デイビス氏のような物理学者が「時間と空間を次元として取り除く必要がある」と提唱していることを紹介しています。これにより、光速を超える移動の可能性が開かれると指摘しています。(00:30:29 - 00:33:11)
• 情報物理学の重要性: 従来の物理学だけでなく、「情報物理学」の重要性を強調しています。UAP現象の理解には、情報とエネルギーが相互に変換される自然の法則を理解し、大規模な情報解析システムを構築することが不可欠であると考えています。ヴァレ氏がロバート・ビゲロー氏とNIDSで取り組んだのは、まさにそのような「非常に大きな情報機械」の構築でした。(00:51:23 - 00:53:29)

4. UAPと宗教的・心理的側面

ヴァレ氏は、UAP現象が宗教的信念や人間の心理に与える影響についても言及しています。

• 「悪」の可能性と「コリンズ・エリート」: ヴァレ氏は、UAP現象が「人々を傷つけている」「明白で恐ろしい」「悪」であると表現し、一部の現象には「悪魔学」に言及したくなるような側面があると述べています。彼は、ペンタゴンや情報機関内に存在する、強い宗教的信念を持つ人々（ヴァレ氏が「コリンズ・エリート」と呼ぶグループ）が、UAPを悪魔的なものとみなし、研究を阻害していることについて言及しています。「コリンズ・エリートのメンバーは、サタンから来るものには誰も興味を持つべきではないと信じている。私は言う、もし我々がサタンと戦うのであれば、彼のおもちゃについて知れることはすべて学ぶべきだ、と。」(00:57:23 - 01:00:48)
• 彼は、キリスト教徒の中にもUAP現象を悪と見なし、研究に反対する人々がいる一方で、多くのキリスト教徒は「悪の側面について可能な限り知るべきだ」と考えていると指摘しています。(00:58:48 - 01:00:11)
• ディスクロージャーの課題: ヴァレ氏は、UAP情報の「ディスクロージャー（公開）」には慎重な姿勢を示しています。単に現象の存在を公開するだけでは、宗教、文化、基本的なテキストに関する多くの新たな問題を引き起こす可能性があると警鐘を鳴らしています。彼は、イスラエルやサウジアラビアにおけるジン（精霊）の信念の例を挙げ、異なる文化圏でのUAP現象の解釈の多様性を強調しています。「それは多くの問題の始まりである。私はそれに答えがあるべきだとは言わない。答えがないのだ。人々が彼らの懸念、彼らの恐怖、彼ら自身の経験を表現できるような、そして我々が議論できるような枠組みがあるべきだと私は思う。」(01:01:32 - 01:04:03)
• UAPによる傷害・死亡事例: ヴァレ氏は、UFOに接近したり、その光に曝露された結果、人々が命を落としたり傷害を負ったりした医学的に文書化された事例があることを認めています。これは「付随的な損傷」である可能性を指摘し、故意の殺人とは断定していません。(01:04:36 - 01:06:56)
• ブラジルのカララス事件における「チュパ・チュパ」による攻撃について、意図的に人々を狙ったケースはあったものの、その女性の死亡はUAPの光線による直接的なものではなく、遭遇による精神的トラウマが原因であったと説明しています。また、ある男性が光線で固定されたものの、死には至らなかった例も挙げています。(01:06:56 - 01:13:31)

5. UAP研究の現状と課題

ヴァレ氏は、UAP研究は継続的な探求であり、即座の「答え」を期待すべきではないと強調しています。

• 研究の進捗: ヴァレ氏は、70年間UAPを調査してきたが、明確な「答え」に近づいているかという問いに対し、科学研究は常に新たな発見が新たな問題を生み出すプロセスであると答えています。癌の研究や太陽の構造の研究と同様に、UAP研究も段階的に進歩していると考えています。(01:13:31 - 01:15:06)
• 政府の関与と限界: ワシントンの人々は「規制」という役割を担っているが、UAPに関する真の知識はカンザスの農民やテキサス、太平洋地域の観察者から得られると考えています。(01:15:06 - 01:15:54)
• 「超国家的なグループ」の存在: ロバート・ビゲロー氏が「隠蔽工作は単一の機関や国ではなく、超国家的なグループ、兄弟団の仕業に違いない」と述べたことに、ヴァレ氏は触れています。しかし、金融分野での経験から、彼は「非常に賢明な金融家たちの優れたコホートや陰謀団が存在し、中国やインドに優先権を与える決定をしている」という考えには同意していません。むしろ、多くの異なるアクターによる「意思の連携」が起こっていると考えています。(01:15:54 - 01:21:50)

6. ヴァレ氏の個人的な見解と経験

• 自身のUFO目撃体験: ヴァレ氏は14歳の時、真昼の青空にドーム型の安定したディスク状の物体を目撃しました。約800メートル離れた友人も双眼鏡で同じものを見ており、描画も一致しました。この直接的な経験が、彼が懐疑論者と議論に多くの時間を費やさない理由の一つです。「私自身も、ゲイリーのように、14歳半か15歳のときに物体を見た。それが既存の（航空機では）なかったことは疑問の余地がない。それは真昼で、青い空で、午後の真ん中だった。」(00:20:40 - 00:21:20)
• 科学者としての姿勢: ヴァレ氏は、自身の個人的な経験があるにもかかわらず、公の場では科学者として客観的な立場を保とうとし、断定的な発言を避ける傾向があります。これは科学が懐疑主義と検証を通じて機能するという信念に基づいています。(00:19:24 - 00:19:59)
• 「私達は知ることを許されているのか」という問い: ヴァレ氏はUAP現象を「非常に興味深い大学の教員」と表現し、自身を学生として捉えています。彼は、現象が人類に知ることを意図しているかについては、自身の「教授たち」（つまり、現象を目撃した一般の人々）からの情報を基に学び続けていると述べています。(01:15:06 - 01:15:54)

結論:

ジャック・ヴァレ氏のUAPに関する見解は、単なる地球外生命体訪問説を超えた、深遠で多層的なものです。彼は、現象が人類の意識と文化に歴史を通じて影響を与える「コントロールシステム」である可能性を提示し、それが物理的な側面だけでなく、心理的、文化的、さらには宗教的な側面を持つことを指摘しています。

政府による隠蔽工作は現実のものであると認識しつつも、その背後にある意図やメカニズムは未解明であると考えています。ヴァレ氏は、UAP研究における「情報物理学」の重要性を強調し、懐疑主義と厳密な科学的アプローチを維持しながら、継続的な探求の必要性を訴えています。ディスクロージャーの潜在的な影響についても慎重な姿勢を示し、多角的な視点から現象を理解することの重要性を強調しています。

ベンチャーキャピタルの経歴

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏の多岐にわたるキャリアとUAP（未確認異常現象）研究の大きな文脈において、提示された情報源は彼の‌‌ベンチャーキャピタルでの経歴‌‌について具体的に説明しています。ヴァレ氏は「21世紀のルネサンス人」と称される人物であり、その活動範囲はコンピューターサイエンス、ベンチャーキャピタル、そしてUAP研究にまで及んでいます。

ベンチャーキャピタルキャリアの概要

ヴァレ氏は、シリコンバレーにおいて、複数のベンチャーキャピタル企業を設立し、ゼネラルパートナーを務めてきました。これには、‌‌ハイテクスタートアップに焦点を当てたNASAのレッドプラネット・キャピタル‌‌も含まれています。彼の関与した著名なベンチャーキャピタル案件としては、以下の企業が挙げられます：

• ‌‌Electronics for Imaging‌‌
• 癌手術用のサイバーナイフを開発した‌‌Acurae Systems‌‌
• 光学ネットワークナノテクノロジーを使用する‌‌Neo Photonics‌‌

彼はカリフォルニアで‌‌5つのベンチャーファンドを立ち上げ、運営‌‌してきました。これらのファンドは、企業の財務強化を目的とするのではなく、‌‌「最初のドル」‌‌、つまりスタートアップへの初期投資に特化していました。

UAP研究との関連性

ヴァレ氏の金融分野での輝かしいキャリアとは別に、彼は異常現象、超常現象、UFO、UAPの研究において「そびえ立つ存在」とされています。興味深いことに、彼のベンチャーキャピタルの環境は、UAPへの彼の関心と繋がっていました。彼が設立した企業のCEOたちは、ヴァレ氏の業績を知るだけでなく、彼が「奇妙なこと」に興味を持っていることも知っていました。ヴァレ氏自身は、これらの企業を設立する理由自体が、CEOたちもまた「奇妙なこと」に興味を持っていたからだと示唆しています。

しかし、ハイテク企業を経営する彼らは、ウォール街や次の資金調達ラウンドを考慮し、世間から真剣に受け止められる必要があったため、UFOの目撃談を公に報告することはありませんでした。それでも、彼らはヴァレ氏を信頼し、自分たちの見たものを彼に語ったといいます。

金融からの洞察とUAP現象への応用

ヴァレ氏は40年もの間、金融の世界に身を置いており、この経験は彼のUAP現象への見方にも影響を与えています。彼は、金融の世界はしばしば混沌としており、多くの変数が存在するため、システムが崩壊しないのは人々が何を動かすべきかを本当に理解していないからだと感じることがあると述べています。

彼は、シリコンバレーでのベンチャー投資は「知的なリスク」を取ることであり、ギャンブルとは異なると説明しています。また、「ベンチャー」という言葉がフランス語では「危険」を意味するのに対し、英語圏では「偉大な探検家」のような冒険心を意味すると指摘し、文化的な違いがリスクへのアプローチに影響を与えることを示唆しています。

ヴァレ氏は、金融の世界を「極めて賢い金融家たちの優れた集団や陰謀」が支配しているという考え方を否定しています。むしろ、多くの「金融のアクター」がそれぞれ意思決定を行い、それが全体としてシステムを再構築していると考えています。彼にとって、重要なのはお金そのものではなく、「知識ある人々の意志の合致」であり、それが世界を変える企業を生み出すと見ています。

この視点は、彼がUAP現象の背後にも、人間をコントロールしようとする「制御システム」のようなものが存在する可能性を探りつつも、UFO現象には「取締役会」のような統一された支配機構が存在するとは考えていないことにも繋がっています。彼のベンチャーキャピタルの経験は、複雑なシステムを理解し、その中でのパターンやアクターの役割を見極めるという点で、UAP研究にも通じるアプローチを提供しています。

自身の UFO 目撃体験

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏のUAP（未確認異常現象）研究への興味という大きな文脈において、提示された情報源は、‌‌1955年のポントワーズの自宅上空でのUFO目撃‌‌が彼の生涯にわたる探求の重要な出発点となったことを明確に示しています。

具体的には、ソースは次のように述べています。

• ヴァレ氏のUAP、UFO、超常現象の研究への関心は、‌‌1955年にポントワーズの自宅上空でUFOを目撃したことによって火がつけられました‌‌。この出来事が彼のUAP研究への道のりの原点となったと言えるでしょう。
• この関心は、‌‌1961年に未確認の逆行衛星が破壊される追跡テープを目撃したとされる‌‌ことで、さらに強まったとされています。

ヴァレ氏自身も、この個人的な体験について詳細に語っています。彼は、ゲイリー・ノーラン教授と同様に、14歳半か15歳の時に物体を目撃したと述べています。彼は、‌‌それが通常の物体ではなかったことに疑いの余地はない‌‌と強調しており、その様子を次のように描写しています。

• 目撃は‌‌明るい日中の、青い空の、午後の真ん中に起こりました‌‌。
• 彼の母親が最初にそれを見て彼を呼び、彼も目撃しました。
• それは‌‌ドーム状の安定した円盤‌‌であり、単なる空の光の点ではありませんでした。
• 彼の家から約0.5マイル離れた友人も双眼鏡でそれを見ており、ヴァレ氏が描くように頼むと、彼が見たものと全く同じものを描いたとのことです。

この直接的な経験は、ヴァレ氏がUAP現象に関して懐疑論者と議論する時間をあまり費やさない理由の一つであるとも説明されています。彼は、科学においては仮説が批判されるのは当然であるとしながらも、自らの目撃体験が確固たるものであると認識しているため、その点について議論する余地がないと考えているようです。

このように、1955年のUFO目撃は、ヴァレ氏のUAP研究における‌‌根本的な動機‌‌となっており、彼の多次元仮説を含むその後の理論的発展や、科学的 rigor を追求する姿勢の背景には、この個人的な体験が深く影響していることが示唆されています。

著書と仮説: "Anatomy of a Phenomenon"(1965): 初の UFO に関する科学書

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏の主要な著書と仮説という文脈において、情報源は‌‌『Anatomy of a Phenomenon』（1965年）‌‌が彼のUAP（未確認異常現象）研究における重要な出発点であったことを説明しています。

具体的には、この本について以下の点が挙げられます。

• ‌‌出版年と意義‌‌: ヴァレ氏は1965年に『Anatomy of a Phenomenon』を発表しました。これは‌‌「UFOに関する最初の科学書の一つ」‌‌とされており、UFO現象に対する科学的アプローチの先駆けとなりました。
• ‌‌初期のUAPデータ分析と仮説‌‌: ヴァレ氏は、パリ天文台やテキサス、カリフォルニアでのコンピュータの知識とツールを応用し、データからパターンを見つけ出すという科学的手法でUFO現象に取り組みました。彼の最初の2冊の本、すなわち『Anatomy of a Phenomenon』も含まれると考えられますが、この中では‌‌地球外仮説（ETI仮説）が「人々が見ている現象の良い近似である」‌‌と論じていました。
• ‌‌研究への提言‌‌: この本の中で、ヴァレ氏は‌‌「厳密で透明性のあるUAPデータの収集と研究」‌‌を主張しました。さらに、‌‌物理的証拠の分析と学際的な研究‌‌を行うことを求めました。これは、UAP現象に対する体系的で科学的なアプローチの必要性を訴えるものでした。

‌‌その後の仮説との対比‌‌: この初期の姿勢は、後に彼が提唱することになる‌‌多次元仮説‌‌と対比されます。1969年の著書『Passport to Magonia』では、UAPが従来の時空を超えた現実から来る可能性を示唆し、地球外仮説に異議を唱える‌‌多次元仮説を初めて提唱‌‌しました。この仮説は、UAPが歴史を通じて人間の意識と文化に影響を与えてきた複雑な現象の一部であると位置づけています。

ヴァレ氏自身は、初期の2冊の本で地球外仮説を支持していたものの、『Passport to Magonia』でその考えを覆したことで、双方から反感を買ったことを述べています。しかし、この転換が結果的に、彼が行った最も重要な仕事だと考えられるようになりました。

このように、『Anatomy of a Phenomenon』は、ヴァレ氏がUAP研究に科学的 rigor をもたらそうとした初期の試みであり、彼の長年にわたる探求の基礎を築いた重要な著作として位置づけられます。彼は60年経った今でも、当初訴えたような実証的なデータ分析がまだ十分に達成されていないと感じているようです。

著書と仮説: "Passport to Magonia"(1969): 多次元仮説

AI

ジャック・ヴァレ氏の主要な著書と仮説というより大きな文脈において、情報源は‌‌『Passport to Magonia』（1969年）‌‌が彼のUAP（未確認異常現象）研究における極めて重要な転換点であり、画期的な‌‌「多次元仮説」‌‌を提唱した作品であることを強調しています。

以下は、この著書と仮説に関する主要なポイントです。

1. ‌‌出版と多次元仮説の提唱‌‌:

   • ヴァレ氏は1969年に『Passport to Magonia』を発表しました。この本は、「UAPの‌‌多次元仮説を初めて提唱‌‌した」とされており、UAPが‌‌「従来の時空を超えた現実から来る可能性がある」‌‌ことを示唆しました。これは、当時の主流であった地球外生命体（ETI）仮説に対する挑戦でした。
   • この仮説は、UAP現象を「歴史を通じて人間の意識と文化に影響を与えてきた複雑な現象の一部」として位置づけています。

2. ‌‌初期の姿勢からの転換‌‌:

   • ヴァレ氏は、1965年の‌‌『Anatomy of a Phenomenon』‌‌を含む初期の2冊の著書で、当初は地球外仮説を「人々が見ている現象の良い近似である」と論じていました。彼はコンピューターとデータ分析の知識を応用し、データからパターンを見つけ出すという科学的手法でUAP現象に取り組んでいました。
   • しかし、『Passport to Magonia』の執筆は、彼が「すべてを破壊した」と感じるほどの転換点となりました。彼自身は、UAP現象における「乗り物」が自動車のような技術とは異なり、時代を超えて一貫した（しかし変化に富んだ）パターンを示すという矛盾に気づき、この転換に至ったと述べています。

3. ‌‌多次元仮説の内容と「制御システム論」‌‌:

   • 多次元仮説は、UAPが物理的な地球外生命体ではなく、「‌‌異次元的に機能する非人間的知性‌‌」によるものであると提唱しています。
   • ヴァレ氏が1970年代に執筆した『Messengers of Deception』で展開された‌‌「制御システム論」‌‌は、UAP遭遇が「人間の意識、文化、社会の進化に影響を与える意図的なメカニズムであり、人間の信念や行動を形成する一種の制御システム」であると示唆しています。このシステムは、既存のパラダイム、科学的唯物論、あるいは宗教的ドグマに挑戦する形で現れ、人間が「自分自身の存在論について考え、現実を問い直す」ことを促し、長期的に「人間の進化を導く」戦略であるとされています。
   • 彼は、この制御システムには、ナチスの強制収容所のような「閉鎖型」のものから、大学のような「開放型」のものまで、さまざまな種類があると例示しています。

4. ‌‌物理学の概念への挑戦‌‌:

   • ヴァレ氏は、地球外仮説の限界として、アインシュタインの相対性理論に基づく光速の限界を挙げます。しかし、彼は物理学者エリック・デイビスの言葉を引用し、時間と空間を二次的なものとみなし、量子形態を重視すれば、光速を超える移動も可能であると述べています。これは数学的な限界であって物理的な限界ではないという視点です。
   • ノースウェスタン大学で教えられていた「5分先の別の宇宙」という概念にも言及し、従来の物理学の枠を超えた可能性を示唆しています。

5. ‌‌多次元仮説の発展と関連する考え‌‌:

   • この仮説は、『The Invisible College』や『Wonders in the Sky』といったその後の著作でさらに拡大されました。
   • ヴァレ氏の研究チームの科学者の一人であるコルム・ケレハー氏は、「古代の寄生知性が何千年もの間地球に存在しており、特定の遺伝子プールを持つ人間がその制御システムに対抗できるため、現象にとって危険視されている」という仮説を提唱しており、ヴァレ氏もこれをグループでの多くの議論の成果であると考えています。

6. ‌‌初期の評価と後世の認識‌‌:

   • ヴァレ氏自身、『Passport to Magonia』の初版は「完全な失敗」だったと感じていましたが、後に人々がその内容を熟考し、何度も再版されることで、現在では彼の「最も重要な仕事」であると広く認識されるようになりました。彼は、この本を書いたことで両陣営から反感を買ったことを述べています。

このように、『Passport to Magonia』とそれに続く多次元仮説は、ヴァレ氏のUAP研究において、単なる地球外生命体という視点を超え、より複雑で奥深い現象として捉え直す画期的な試みでした。

著書と仮説: "Invisible College & Wonders in the Sky": 多次元仮説の拡張

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏の主要な著書と仮説という文脈において、情報源は‌‌『The Invisible College』‌‌と‌‌『Wonders in the Sky』‌‌が、彼の画期的な‌‌「多次元仮説」‌‌をさらに‌‌拡張‌‌した作品であると述べています。

以前の会話で述べたように、ヴァレ氏の多次元仮説は、1969年の『Passport to Magonia』で初めて提唱されました。この仮説は、UAP（未確認異常現象）が従来の時空を超えた現実から来る可能性があり、地球外生命体（ETI）仮説に挑戦するものであると示唆しました [4, 以前の会話]。

‌‌『The Invisible College』と『Wonders in the Sky』における多次元仮説の拡張点‌‌:

• ‌‌UAPの複合現象としての位置づけ‌‌: これらの著作は、多次元仮説の視点を拡張し、UAPが‌‌「歴史を通じて人間の意識と文化に影響を与えてきた複雑な現象の一部」‌‌であると位置づけています。
• ‌‌非人間的知性による影響‌‌: 多次元仮説の核心は、UAPが異次元的に機能する非人間的知性によるものであり、UAP遭遇は「人間の意識、文化、社会の進化に影響を与える意図的なメカニズム」、つまり人間の信念や行動を形成する一種の‌‌「制御システム」‌‌であるという考え方です [以前の会話]。『The Invisible College』と『Wonders in the Sky』は、この制御システムが人類の歴史全体にわたってどのように機能し、影響を与えてきたかをさらに深く探求していると解釈できます。
• ‌‌既存のパラダイムへの挑戦‌‌: この制御システムは、科学的唯物論や宗教的ドグマといった既存のパラダイムに挑戦し、人間が「自分自身の存在論について考え、現実を問い直す」ことを促し、長期的には「人間の進化を導く」戦略であるとヴァレ氏は提唱しています [以前の会話]。

これらの後続の著書を通じて、ヴァレ氏は多次元仮説を単なるUAPの起源に関する考察にとどまらず、人類の歴史と意識に深く根ざした、より広範な影響を持つ現象として、その概念をさらに発展させていると言えます。

著書と仮説: "Forbidden Science 6: Scatterd Castle(2010-2019を追跡)"

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏の主要な著書と仮説というより大きな文脈において、新たな情報源は‌‌『Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles』‌‌が、ヴァレ氏の長年にわたるUAP（未確認異常現象）研究の最新の成果の一つであり、彼の多次元仮説や「制御システム論」を裏付ける新たな洞察を提供するものであると示唆しています。

以下は、この著書に関する主要なポイントです。

1. ‌‌出版と内容‌‌:

   • 『Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles』は、ヴァレ氏が85歳にして発表した最新の著書であり、彼の「Forbidden Science」シリーズの一部です。
   • この本は、‌‌2010年から2019年という期間の出来事を追跡‌‌しています。これは、彼が数十年にわたって続けてきたUAP研究の最新の進展や洞察が記録されていることを意味します。

2. ‌‌ヴァレ氏の経歴と専門知識‌‌:

   • ジャック・ヴァレ氏は、コンピューター科学、ベンチャーキャピタル、そしてUAPや超常現象の研究で知られる21世紀のルネサンス人とも言える人物です。
   • 彼はソルボンヌで数学の学士号、リール大学で宇宙物理学の修士号、ノースウェスタン大学でコンピューター科学の博士号を取得しています。
   • NASA初の火星コンピューター地図の共同開発やARPANET（インターネットの前身）への貢献など、初期の科学キャリアも多岐にわたります。
   • シリコンバレーで複数のベンチャーキャピタル企業を設立し、ハイテクスタートアップに焦点を当てたNASAのRed Planet Capitalのゼネラルパートナーも務めました。
   • UFOへの関心は1955年の目撃事件から始まり、1961年の未確認の逆行衛星の追跡テープ破壊の目撃でさらに強まりました。彼はJ・アレン・ハイネック博士とも協力し、スピルバーグ監督の映画『未知との遭遇』に登場するフランス人科学者のインスピレーションとなりました。

3. ‌‌多次元仮説との関連‌‌:

   • ヴァレ氏の初期の著作には、1965年の‌‌『Anatomy of a Phenomenon』‌‌（UFOに関する最初の科学的著作の一つ）や、1969年の‌‌『Passport to Magonia』‌‌（UAPの‌‌多次元仮説‌‌を初めて提唱し、従来の宇宙人仮説に挑戦した画期的な作品）があります [4, 以前の会話]。
   • 多次元仮説は、UAPが「従来の時空を超えた現実から来る可能性」があり、「歴史を通じて人間の意識と文化に影響を与えてきた複雑な現象の一部」であると提唱しています [4, 以前の会話]。この視点は、その後の‌‌『The Invisible College』‌‌や‌‌『Wonders in the Sky』‌‌といった著作でさらに拡張されました [5, 以前の会話]。
   • 『Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles』は、この長年にわたる研究の集大成として、2010年代の出来事を検証し、多次元仮説や制御システム論に対する新たな証拠や考察を提供していると考えられます。彼の‌‌「制御システム論」‌‌は、UAP遭遇が「人間の意識、文化、社会の進化に影響を与える意図的なメカニズム」であり、人間の信念や行動を形成する一種の制御システムであると示唆しています [28, 以前の会話]。このシステムは、物理的な宇宙人ではなく、「異次元的に機能する非人間的知性」によるものとされています [28, 以前の会話]。
   • ヴァレ氏は、UAPが時代を超えて一貫した（しかし変化に富んだ）パターンを示すことや、アインシュタインの光速の限界を超える移動の可能性など、従来の物理学の枠組みを超える現象であると指摘し、多次元仮説を補強しています。
   • 彼は、友人の科学者コルム・ケレハー氏が提唱する‌‌「古代の寄生知性が何千年もの間地球に存在しており、特定の遺伝子プールを持つ人間がその制御システムに対抗できる」‌‌という仮説についても、「グループでの多くの議論の成果である」と述べており、自身の多次元仮説との関連性を示唆しています。この考え方は、UAPが物理的なETではなく、‌‌異次元的に、あるいは「地球内的に（intraterrestrially）」機能する非人間的知性‌‌であり、心理的・文化的変化を引き起こすために精神的な相互作用を利用しているというヴァレ氏の初期の論文（『Messengers of Deception』で展開）と類似しています。

『Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles』は、ヴァレ氏が70年近くにわたるUAP研究で得た知識と経験に基づいて、多次元仮説と制御システム論をさらに深化させ、現代のUAP現象を理解するための重要な視点を提供していると言えるでしょう。

著書と仮説: "Messenger of Deception(1970年代)" : UAP 遭遇は人間意識を操作するメカニズム

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏の主要な著書と仮説のより大きな文脈において、情報源は‌‌『Messengers of Deception』（1970年代に執筆）‌‌が、ヴァレ氏の画期的な「多次元仮説」と‌‌UAP遭遇が人間意識を操作するメカニズムである‌‌という彼の「制御システム論」をさらに深く掘り下げた著作であることを明確に示しています。

以前の会話で述べたように、ヴァレ氏の「多次元仮説」は、UAPが従来の時空を超えた現実から来る可能性があり、地球外生命体（ETI）仮説に疑問を投げかけるものであると1969年の『Passport to Magonia』で初めて提唱されました [4, 以前の会話]。

‌‌『Messengers of Deception』における多次元仮説と制御システム論の拡張点‌‌:

• ‌‌UAP遭遇の意図的なメカニズムとしての側面‌‌: 『Messengers of Deception』では、UAP遭遇が‌‌「人間の意識、文化、社会の進化に影響を与える意図的なメカニズム」‌‌であるという考えが探求されています。これは、人間の信念や行動を形成するための‌‌一種の「制御システム」‌‌として機能するというものです。
• ‌‌非人間的知性の役割‌‌: ヴァレ氏は、この制御システムが物理的な地球外生命体（ET）ではなく、「異次元的に機能する非人間的知性」によるものであると推測しています。この知性は、心理的な相互作用を利用して心理的および文化的な変化を引き起こすために、「地球内的（intraterrestrially）」に機能する可能性もあります。これは、友人であるコルム・ケレハー氏の仮説（「古代の寄生知性が何千年もの間地球に存在しており、特定の遺伝子プールを持つ人間がその制御システムに対抗できる」）とも類似しているとヴァレ氏は指摘しています。
• ‌‌既存のパラダイムへの挑戦と意識の誘導‌‌: この現象は、科学的唯物論や宗教的ドグマといった既存のパラダイムに挑戦する形で現れ、人間が「自分自身の存在論について考え、現実を問い直す」ことを促すとされています。ヴァレ氏は、これは長期的に「人間の進化を導く」戦略であると提唱しています。彼はこの制御システムを、閉じられた刑務所のようなシステムから、大学のような「オープンな制御システム」（ルールが明文化されていなくても、進むべき道を見つけ出す必要がある）まで、さまざまな形で例えています。
• ‌‌物理的限界を超えた現象‌‌: ヴァレ氏は、アインシュタインの光速の限界といった従来の物理学の制約を超えて、UAPが「別の宇宙」から来たり、量子的な形で存在したりする可能性に言及し、多次元仮説を補強しています。彼は「光速を限界として語るのはやめよう。それは数学上の限界であって、物理学上の限界ではない」と述べています。

『Messengers of Deception』は、UAP現象を単なる宇宙人の訪問と捉えるのではなく、‌‌人類の意識と社会の進化に深く関わる、より複雑で巧妙な非人間的知性による操作‌‌として解釈する、ヴァレ氏の独自の見解を確立する上で重要な著作であることが、これらの情報源からわかります。

超国家的な側面

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ジャック・ヴァレ氏のUAP研究と多岐にわたるキャリアというより大きな文脈において、新たな情報源は‌‌UAP現象における「超国家的な側面」‌‌に関する興味深い議論を展開しています。この議論は、UAP現象の「制御システム論」と、それが人間の社会や情報にどのように影響を与えるかというヴァレ氏の長年の仮説に深く関連しています。

以下に主要なポイントを説明します。

1. ‌‌超国家的な陰謀の可能性（Coulthard氏の問いかけ）‌‌:

   • インタビュアーのロス・クールサード氏は、ロバート・ビゲロー氏が「超国家的なグループ、つまり単一の機関や国ではなく、友愛団体（brotherhood）の仕業に違いない」と述べたことに言及し、また、新たな内部告発者であるマシュー・ブラウン氏が「アメリカは、自らの利益に奉仕し、国家や人々を目的のための道具とみなす国際主義勢力によって侵食され、利用され、腐敗させられてきた」と述べたことに触れています。
   • クールサード氏はヴァレ氏に対し、ビゲロー氏やブラウン氏が「これが何であれ、国家を超えた国際的な、超国家的なものである」という同様の結論に至ったことについて意見を求めています。

2. ‌‌ヴァレ氏の懐疑的な見解（金融界の経験から）‌‌:

   • これに対しヴァレ氏は、過去40年間の金融界での経験に触れながら、‌‌「非常に賢明な金融業者からなる優れた集団や陰謀が存在し、中国やインドに優先権を与えるといった決定を下しているわけではない」‌‌と述べています。
   • 彼は、金融の世界では多くの変数が絡み合い、システムがカオス的であり、多くの関係者がそれぞれの利益のために行動していると説明しています。
   • この経験から、UAPの文脈においても、‌‌「UFOの理事会（board of directors）のようなものはまだ見つけていない」‌‌と述べており、単一の強力な超国家的な組織がすべてを制御しているという見方には懐疑的であることを示唆しています。

3. ‌‌「人間による制御メカニズム」の存在‌‌:

   • しかし、ヴァレ氏は、UAP情報に関する「人間による制御メカニズム」の存在自体は否定していません。彼は、‌‌「スーツを着た男たち」‌‌が現場に現れて情報を押収し、人々が機密保持契約（NDA）に署名させる事例について詳しく語っています。
   • 彼は、このような行為が「軍事安全保障規則の違反」であると指摘し、「紙は署名されておらず、これらの男たちが誰であったのか誰も知らない」と強調しています。これは、特定の政府機関の範囲内、あるいはその境界線上で、UAP情報が隠蔽されていることを示唆しています。
   • フランス政府の例では、米国がUAPの知識を隠蔽しているとフランス側が考えていたものの、その理由は「世界にこれ以上注意をそらすものを増やす必要はない」という異なるものであったことも指摘しています。

4. ‌‌現象自身の「制御システム」と人間の反応‌‌:

   • ヴァレ氏が以前から提唱しているように、UAP現象自体が‌‌「人間の意識、文化、社会の進化に影響を与える意図的なメカニズム」‌‌としての「制御システム」であるという仮説があります。彼は、この制御システムを、閉鎖的な刑務所から、ルールが明文化されていなくても進むべき道を見つける必要がある大学のような「オープンな制御システム」まで、様々な形で例えています。
   • 超国家的な陰謀の議論は、主に‌‌人間側の対応や情報隠蔽‌‌に関するものですが、ヴァレ氏の視点では、この人間側の隠蔽や混乱も、現象自身の「制御システム」によって引き起こされる、あるいはその一部として利用されている可能性も示唆していると解釈できます。

結論として、ジャック・ヴァレ氏は、ボブ・ビゲロー氏やマシュー・ブラウン氏が提唱するような、UAPの隠蔽工作を指揮する‌‌単一の、高度に組織化された「超国家的な陰謀」‌‌に対しては慎重な姿勢を示しています。彼の経験から、事態はより複雑で、複数のアクター（個人、組織、政府）の錯綜した行動や、特定の情報に対する防衛的な反応が入り混じっていると見ています。しかし、彼は‌‌人間によるUAP情報の隠蔽や操作‌‌（「スーツを着た男たち」の介入など）の存在は明確に認めており、これを現象自体の「制御システム」とは別の、あるいはそれに連動する、‌‌人間社会における「制御メカニズム」‌‌として捉えていると言えるでしょう。

時系列

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• 1945年: ロズウェル事件の2年前、ニューメキシコ州の同様の地域でUAP（未確認異常現象）の事例が再調査される。
• 1955年: ジャック・ヴァレが14歳か15歳の時、ポントワーズの自宅上空でUFOを目撃し、UAPへの関心が芽生える。
• 1961年: ジャック・ヴァレが未確認の逆行衛星が破壊された追跡テープとされるものを見て、UAPへの関心を深める。
• 1963年: ジャック・ヴァレがテキサス大学でNASA初の火星のコンピュータ化された地図の共同開発に携わる。
• 1965年: ジャック・ヴァレがUFOに関する最初の科学的書籍の一つである『Anatomy of a Phenomenon（現象の解剖学）』を出版し、UAPデータの厳密で透明な収集と研究を主張する。
• 1960年代半ば: ジャック・ヴァレがエイメ・ミシェルと協力し、フランス空軍にUAP情報の収集状況を問い合わせる。フランスはアメリカとの協力を希望するが、アメリカ側は「世界には悪いことがたくさん起こっている」との理由で協力を拒否する。
• 1967年: ジャック・ヴァレがノースウェスタン大学でコンピュータサイエンスの博士号を取得する。
• 1969年: ジャック・ヴァレがUAPの多次元仮説を初めて提唱する『Passport to Magonia（マゴニアへのパスポート）』を出版する。
• 1970年代: ロズウェル事件がスタン・フリードマンの研究により再びニュースとなる。ジャック・ヴァレが『The Invisible College（見えない大学）』などの著作で多次元仮説をさらに展開する。
• 1970年代から1980年代: ブラジルのカララス事件とチュッパチュッパ事件が発生し、UAPによる被害が報告される。
• 1970年代: ジャック・ヴァレがJ.アレン・ハイネックと共にノースウェスタン大学で、光速を超える可能性のある別の宇宙の存在を教える。
• 1980年代半ばから後半: フランスでGEPAN（後にGEIPAN）の存続を巡って論争が起こる。科学界や政府関係者への調査の結果、国民の関心の高さから情報公開の義務として研究の継続が決定される。
• 1993年11月: 地中海で2機の米軍RC-135エリント機がUFOに遭遇。後に「スーツの男たち」が現れ、乗組員にNDAに署名させ、すべてのデータを押収する。
• 2004年: アメリカ海軍による「Tic Tac（ティックタック）」UAP目撃事件が発生。この際にも、後に「スーツの男たち」が現れ、データを押収したとされる。
• 不明（NIDS設立以前）: ロバート・ビゲローがNIDS（国立発見科学研究所）を設立。
• NIDS解散後: BAS（未確認航空現象研究アカデミー）プロジェクトが進行し、ジャック・ヴァレもコンピュータ分析を担当する。しかし、AIの実装に必要な5年のうち2年で中断される。
• ORSEPプロジェクト（期間不明）: DIA（国防情報局）のためのUAP調査が行われ、ロバート・ビゲローが関与する。ジャック・ヴァレはこのチームと連携するが、具体的な内容については関与していないと述べる。
• 2010年～2019年: ジャック・ヴァレが『Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles』を出版し、この期間の出来事を記録する。
• 現在: UAPの存在と政府による隠蔽、非人間的知能の可能性について、米国議会で議論が続いている。

主要関係者

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• ジャック・ヴァレ (Jacques Vallée): (話者) フランス生まれのコンピュータ科学者、ベンチャーキャピタリスト、UAP研究の第一人者。ソルボンヌ大学で数学の学士号、リール大学で天体物理学の修士号、ノースウェスタン大学でコンピュータサイエンスの博士号を取得。NASA初の火星地図を共同開発し、ARPANETに貢献。NIDSやBASプロジェクトに携わり、UAPの多次元仮説を提唱している。スピルバーグ監督の映画『未知との遭遇』のフランス人科学者キャラクターのインスピレーション源でもある。

• ロス・コールタード (Ross Coulthard): (インタビュアー) 『Reality Check』のホスト。ジャーナリストであり、UAP問題に深く関わっている。

• J.アレン・ハイネック (J. Allen Hynek): 米国空軍のプロジェクト・ブルーブックの科学顧問を務めた天文学者。ジャック・ヴァレと協力してUFO研究を行った。

• ロバート・ビゲロー (Robert Bigelow): 宇宙航空事業家であり、UAP研究を支援するNIDS（国立発見科学研究所）を設立した人物。DIAのORSEP調査にも関与した。

• スタン・フリードマン (Stanton T. Friedman): ロズウェル事件の再調査で知られるエンジニア、物理学者。ハイテクおよび航空宇宙企業での勤務経験を持つ。

• パオラ・ハリス (Paola Harris): ジャック・ヴァレと共に1945年のUAP事件を再調査した人物。

• エイメ・ミシェル (Aimé Michel): フランスの哲学者。科学に深い関心を持ち、ジャック・ヴァレの初期のUAP研究における指導者の一人。

• ポワレ博士 (Dr. Poiret): フランスの宇宙機関CNES内でUFO調査を行うための小規模なチーム（GEPANの前身）を設立するきっかけを作った航空宇宙エンジニア。ジャック・ヴァレとファイルを共有していた。

• コルム・ケレハー (Colm Kelleher): NIDSおよびBASプロジェクトでジャック・ヴァレと共に働いた科学者。UAP現象について「古代の寄生的な知能が数千年にわたって地球に存在している」という仮説を提唱している。

• ゲイリー・ノーラン (Gary Nolan): スタンフォード大学の著名な免疫学者。UAPに関する個人的な体験を持ち、米国政府が非人間的知能の知識を隠蔽していると強く信じている。

• エリック・デイビス (Eric Davis): 物理学者。ジャック・ヴァレが物理学の知識を更新するために相談する人物。光速の限界を超える可能性について議論する。

• ジャック・ベルジェ (Jacques Bergier): フランスのスパイであり、戦時中にドイツのロケット基地（ペーネミュンデ）の場所特定に関わった人物。ナチスの収容所に収容された経験から、「閉鎖的な統制システムが教化センターにもなり得る」という見解をジャック・ヴァレに語った。

• イーロン・マスク (Elon Musk): テクノロジー起業家。Lex Fridmanのインタビューで「究極のAIに最初に聞く質問は、シミュレーションの外に何があるかだ」と述べた。

• コルム・ケレハー (Colm Kelleher): (再掲) ジャック・ヴァレの同僚で、UAP現象に関する「古代の寄生的な知能」仮説を提唱。

• ルー・エリゾンド (Lou Elizondo): UAPの脅威について語ることで知られる人物。

• マシュー・ブラウン (Matthew Brown): 新たな内部告発者。米国が「国際主義勢力」によって浸透され、共謀し、腐敗していると主張。

• ストゥロック教授 (Professor Sturrock): スタンフォード大学の教授。ジャック・ヴァレが太陽コロナの研究で協力した人物。

情報源

動画(1:23:47)

Jacques Vallée: Project Blue Book, space travel and military secrecy | Reality Check

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqptVKs7wbc

動画概要欄

136,000 views Premiered May 2, 2025 Reality Check with Ross Coulthart

In this episode of "Reality Check," Ross Coulthart sits down with researcher, scientist and author Jacques Vallée. Vallée has been researching the UAPs since the 1960s. Together, they dive into Vallée’s research, theories of NHI origins and military UAP crash retrieval programs. Vallée also shares stories from investigations, his time working closely with Robert Bigelow and his firsthand account of witnessing a UAP. Vallée also discusses his latest book in his Forbidden Science series, “Scattered Castles: The Journals of Jacques Vallée 2010-2019.”

文字起こし（話者識別）

展開

（以下は "Jacques Vallée: Project Blue Book, space travel and military secrecy | Reality Check" と題された動画の文字起こし（話者識別）です。）

[Ross Coulthard] : Hello and welcome to Reality Check. I'm your host Ross Coulthard and today we have a guest I've long wanted to get on the show and we have the perfect excuse because he's just published his latest book. Jacques Vallée. If ever there was a 21st century Renaissance man, he's the chap. He was born in but he lives between Paris and San Francisco, most of the time in San Francisco, and he's currently talking to us from Paris. He is renowned for his contributions to computer science, venture capitalism, and especially of course the study of unidentified anomalous phenomena and the paranormal. (00:00:49)

[Ross Coulthard] : Jacques's CV is extraordinary. He earned a bachelor's degree in mathematics from the Sorbonne, a master's in astrophysics from Lille University, and a PhD in computer science from Northwestern University in 1967. His early work had him as an astronomer at the Paris Observatory and he co-developed NASA's first computerized map of Mars in 1963 at the University of Texas. At Stanford Research Institute in California, he contributed to the ARPANET, which was the pioneer, the precursor to the internet. He's a true internet pioneer. (00:01:29)

[Ross Coulthard] : And from Silicon Valley, he founded and served as a general partner in multiple venture capital firms, including NASA's Red Planet Capital, which focused on high technology startups. His notable venture capital initiatives include Electronics for Imaging, Acurae Systems, who developed the Cyberknife for cancer surgery, and Neo Photonics, which uses optical network nanotechnology. Aside from, of course, his brilliant financial career, Jacques's a towering figure in the study of anomalous and paranormal phenomena, UFOs, UAPs. His interest was sparked in 1955 when he saw a UFO over his pontoise home and intensified in 1961 when he allegedly saw tracking tapes of an unidentified retrograde satellite being destroyed. (00:02:26)

[Ross Coulthard] : He worked with the astronomer J. Alan Hynek, who was the scientific advisor to the US Air Force's Project Blue Book. And yes, of course, he was the inspiration for the French scientist character in the Spielberg movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. But it's his books we're talking about today, his learning over many decades. He kicked off with his Anatomy of a Phenomenon in 1965, which was one of the first scientific books on UFOs. His seminal Passport to Magonia in 1969 was the first to propose, I think, a multi-dimensional hypothesis for UAPs, suggesting they might originate from realities beyond conventional space-time, which was a challenge to the conventional extraterrestrial hypothesis. (00:03:18)

[Ross Coulthard] : And this hypothesis, this perspective, which has been expanded in works like The Invisible College and Wonders in the Sky, it posits UAPs as part of a complex phenomenon influencing human consciousness and culture across history. Now, you'd think at 85, Jacques would want to slow down, but he's actually released another book in his formidable Forbidden Science series. Forbidden Science 6 is called Scattered Castles, and it tracks the very interesting years from 2010 to 2019. Jacques Vallée, I had to do that enormous biography of you because I wanted people to know exactly who you are and why it's such a privilege to have you here. (00:04:10)

[Ross Coulthard] : Thank you so much for talking to Reality Check. (00:04:12)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, thank you very much for having me. And, you know, listening to this is, you know, a reminiscence of many challenges over the years. And it never stops. I mean, there are more challenges now. (00:04:31)

[Ross Coulthard] : Now, Jacques, I wanted to get from you off the top. I've got a pretty good idea of where you stand. But I thought I should ask you off the top, because I haven't seen you ask this for a very long time. You've got a friend in a group of scientists and ex-intelligence officials who collaborate in the old ORSAP investigations for DIA with Robert Bigelow, and you keep in touch with those people. You call them the Lone Stars. And in your book, you talk about how they all take for granted that there is this US government craft retrieval program that the United States is hiding, a covert UAP craft retrieval and reverse engineering program. (00:05:17)

[Ross Coulthard] : And I had a look at a lot of your interviews. I've never seen you asked definitively where you stand on that. Do you accept that there is such a program? (00:05:27)

[Jacques Vallee] : It's certainly the information that we got within the team, by the way, you know, highly, even though we no longer work as part of an organized research, we each do our own research and we compare notes once in a while. But I've kept, you know, enormous respect for the group and for the talents in the group. The idea of, you know, all the information about crashed objects from space, that's not new. I mean, this, we were talking about this in France a long time ago. (00:06:13)

[Jacques Vallee] : Do the Americans have, you know, something that they've picked up in the desert and so on. But it's not, it was anecdotal, but there were books about that already, you know, speculating on this. And it's not until, I think, the 70s that Roswell, you know, was, came back into the news with, thanks to Stanfriedman, you know, Stanfriedman was a respected engineer and physicist who had worked in high technology and aerospace companies in California. And his analysis of Roswell was convincing that there was something had happened there, even though there was no witness on site at the time, but it became the model. (00:07:15)

[Jacques Vallee] : So this was, you know, a long time before, you know, the Bigelow Group became involved and so on. What we did was to try first with NIDS, which was, as you know, not classified and not, was sponsored by Mr. Bigelow. (00:07:34)

[Ross Coulthard] : We tried to... That was the National Institute of Discovery Science, the Robert Bigelow National Institute of Discovery Science, NIDS. (00:07:43)

[Jacques Vallee] : But this was, you know, the best we could do in speculating about what those, whether those crashes had, how many there were, and how reliable they could be. Dr. Hynek's team at QFOSS had done research on site in New Mexico, and other people had done that also. And, you know, it was also a source of confusion. Everybody had their own theories. And of course, there were skeptics. And the skeptical view was legitimate, because there was no credible witness at the site gathering information that we could take to the lab. (00:08:36)

[Jacques Vallee] : However, as time went on, certainly, you know, with my own resources, I went there. And as you know, together with Paola Harris, I re-investigated a case that we're still continuing to look at in 1945, two years before Roswell, in a similar area of New Mexico. So, by now, there is a lot of information. There is a lot of testimony that has been well recorded and well analyzed. Unfortunately, within BAS, that technically should have access. (00:09:29)

[Jacques Vallee] : Now, if we had access to that, we probably couldn't talk about it. So, we can talk about speculation. And the new information is surprising. Because the new information that you're mentioning has to do with actual experiments out in the desert, typically, or trying to corral some of these objects and get them to land or to become visible so that they could be analyzed. And I don't have a position on that. I have not been at the site. (00:10:18)

[Jacques Vallee] : And, but I trust the people who are making those reports. (00:10:25)

[Ross Coulthard] : One thing that I like about your book is you offer a transatlantic perspective, because you do move between France and the United States. You talk also to a lot of people in the French government, the French military, the French intelligence community. Do they take for granted that the United States is concealing knowledge of the UAP mystery? (00:10:51)

[Jacques Vallee] : Yes, but for a different reason. In the day, going back to the days when I was working with Aimee Michel, who was a French philosopher, very interested in science, and so on, who was my initial mentor in this, I kept telling him, look, you know, I'm in touch with Dr. Hynek and so on. And in the US, you know, there is all this, all this information about supposed crashed objects and so on. And there is a study under a blue book, you know, how come France isn't doing anything? (00:11:37)

[Jacques Vallee] : And he said, you know, it's a perfectly good question. I asked my contact at the French Air Force, you know, who is gathering information. This was before the CNES, before satellites, before... we're talking about, you know, the mid 60s. And he came back and he said, well, I had another lunch. Of course, it's Paris, you have lunch with people, you know, and then you talk seriously around dessert and coffee and maybe a little bit of liquor. And you get much better information this way. (00:12:21)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, the man from the French Air Force said, well, you know, I went to my contact at the US Embassy and I asked him, I said, you know, you guys are talking about UFOs and so on. Should we cooperate? Because we've got files. I mean, we've got observations from pilots, you know, in North Africa, you know, in France and so on. And we could compare notes. And he said, my contact made a couple of calls to Washington. Then he came back and said, look, this was again the mid 60s. So, there are lots of bad things happening in the world. (00:13:03)

[Jacques Vallee] : You know, it's called war. You know, the situation with Russia, with the USSR in those days, you know, is very much, you know, and uncontrolled. And we don't need one more thing to distract everybody, you know. So, yes, we keep track of that, but we would not. So, there was no cooperation at the time, as we had hoped, between France and the US. And there hasn't been really since then, you know, on the academic, whether there is something else, I don't know. But it would have to be very, very specific, and not within the circles that I know about. (00:13:55)

[Ross Coulthard] : What prompted... I'm fascinated by GEPAR, the French agency, quasi-government agency that investigates UFOs, UAPs. Why did France, of all countries in the world, create, well before any other country, a formal office for investigating the phenomenon? (00:14:14)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, you know, French academics are very much inspired by rationalism, you know, that the study of science as a study of nature, and the study of phenomena. But there was, it wasn't easy. There was a lot of controversy about, you know, why do we spend that much money? It wasn't that much money. It was just one, you know, one aerospace engineer, who's still alive, Dr. Poiret. And, you know, I had shared my files with Dr. Poiret when he indicated his interest in doing this. (00:15:02)

[Jacques Vallee] : And we were working together. And he then assembled enough formal information that he could present at a high level within the ministry to convince them to create a small cell, you know, a small project within the space agency. (00:15:26)

[Ross Coulthard] : So, what is France's position on UAPs? Do they believe, is there a formal government position on UFOs, UAPs? Do they accept that there is a non-human intelligence? Or is it still an open question? (00:15:42)

[Jacques Vallee] : There was a crisis in the mid to late 80s, when many French academics said, why are we spending all this money on this? You know, the Americans have stopped their project, Project Blue Book, you know, because they didn't really have any answers. And so we don't have all the money that the Americans have. So, why are we doing this? We could be, there are so many other things in science that are unknown, that would be interesting to study. And my friends in France did a survey of French influential leaders in science and government and law. (00:16:36)

[Jacques Vallee] : And the press. And they came back about 50-50, the weight of the advice. And those were, you know, sort of day long reviews of the data with each one of these people, there were about 50 people. So, it was a serious study. The consensus was, there probably isn't anything to UFOs, because otherwise, the Americans would be doing something now. But the public is very engaged. And if we don't do something, the public will think we're hiding aliens. So, we should, we have a duty of information to the public. (00:17:24)

[Jacques Vallee] : And they restarted the study, they were going to close down. (00:17:30)

[Ross Coulthard] : I'm going to pin you down. I'm going to pin you down, sir. What do you think? Do you think that the United States is concealing knowledge of non-human intelligence? (00:17:42)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, you know, that's what's being discussed in Washington right now. I know the, you know, of course, I've followed every step of this. I've been asked to, not to testify, but to brief some of the people in the Intelligence Committee of the Senate. And, you know, I've had some experience before in my computer career with the way things work, you know, at the level of Congress. Congress is not a scientific body. (00:18:25)

[Jacques Vallee] : It's not their job. So, the funny thing is that we have a lot of scientists, you know, coming forward, explaining the science. And that's, it's, of course, it's relevant. But that's not what Congress does. Congress is there to to feed into future laws and long term decisions that involve budgets, and maybe science and research. Okay. So, I think there is a misunderstanding there. Okay. There is no misunderstanding in the skills, you know, with the staff, with the staffers for the intelligence community, and so on. (00:19:04)

[Jacques Vallee] : They know what we do, and we know what they do. Okay, so... (00:19:10)

[Ross Coulthard] : With respect, Jacques, you've kind of avoided my question, because what you often do is... Yes, yes, yes. You deflect it. You very carefully deflect it. (00:19:20)

[Jacques Vallee] : Like you, I'm waiting to see what's going to come out of it. (00:19:24)

[Ross Coulthard] : I'm interested in your personal view. And I want to, because I mean, for example, you're good friends with Gary Nolan, Professor Gary Nolan, a renowned Stanford immunologist. And Gary's quite upfront about his personal experiences as a child, and his strong belief that there is some kind of a cover-up going on, that the United States is concealing knowledge of UAPs, knowledge of a non-human intelligence. Are you not able to say definitively where you stand on that yourself? (00:19:55)

[Ross Coulthard] : Or are you being a scientist, you're hedging your bets? (00:19:59)

[Jacques Vallee] : I could not give you a statement, you know, from the BASS project, which was classified and still is. A lot of the things that we did, you know, I was responsible for the computer side of it and the computer analysis, which was cut off after two years, two of the five years we needed to implement AI on top of what we had. So, that part has been partially declassified, thanks to the work of Dr. Keller and others. So, I can talk about that. (00:20:40)

[Jacques Vallee] : I can tell you what some of what we did. There is no question, as you know, like Gary, I saw an object when I was 14 and a half or 15. There is no question about that it wasn't conventional. This was, you know, bright daylight, blue sky, middle of the afternoon. You know, my mother saw it first, called me. I saw it. It was a disk. It was not just some point of light in the sky. You know, this was a stable disk with a dome on top. (00:21:20)

[Jacques Vallee] : A friend of mine, about half a mile from my house, had looked at it with binoculars. So, when I learned that, I asked him to draw it and he drew exactly what I had seen. Okay. So, both Gary and I share, you know, share that direct experience with him. He's had more profound experience with something more, you know, more personal than in his environment. But I've had something like this as I, you know, as I mentioned in the book, in this book, you know, with essentially an apparition in my apartment. So, there is no question. (00:22:05)

[Jacques Vallee] : That's why we don't spend a lot of time arguing with skeptics. I mean, they have every right to be skeptical. And that's what the way science works. You know, the discoverer of prions, you know, Nobel Prize in medicine was laughed at for 10 years by his colleagues at the University of California, you know, Medical Center, you know, the top research place in the country, one of the three top hospitals, until people said, Okay, you're right. (00:22:41)

[Jacques Vallee] : I know a molecule that's this way can turn this way. And it can turn deadly, just by changing some of its shape. The that wasn't known before. So, this is not unusual in science. I mean, you expect that people will criticize. Now, what we what we do know, is that, you know, to not to escape your question, is that those crashes are reported by reliable people. You know, and I've been there, and I've spoken to them. (00:23:14)

[Jacques Vallee] : I've spoken to people, not only in France and California, but throughout the US. You know, I did a number of investigations with Dr. Hynek in those, in those days, I went six times to Russia, actually twice to the Soviet Union and four times to Russia, under professional, you know, professional need, and found that people at certain times were quite free to talk about it. And we published an article in Russia in the 60s, that had 4 million readers in Trude, which is the Union magazine. So, I think those, those things have been going on for a long time. (00:24:06)

[Jacques Vallee] : Now, it's delightful that people are coming into this now, and asking all those questions again, because in science, you know, the answers you got 20 years ago are not the answers you're going to get today. So, I think that's a normal process. They don't have any problem with it. (00:24:25)

[Ross Coulthard] : One of the things I love about your journals is you pepper them with incredible little insights. And one of my favorite quotations that you have in the latest book is one from Colm Kelleher, one of the scientists who worked with you on the, I think, the BASS project, and also the NIDS as well. And he says, quote, a central working hypothesis is that an ancient parasitic intelligence has been on earth for thousands of years. A related hypothesis is that there is a small minority of humans endowed with above average discernment. (00:25:10)

[Ross Coulthard] : This cadre of humans belongs to a particular gene pool considered dangerous by the phenomenon, because they alone can create countermeasures to the control system. What do you think of that analysis by Colm, Jacques? (00:25:29)

[Jacques Vallee] : I'm completely, I think it's the fruit of many discussions that we had as a group. Colm was running most of the day-to-day administration, business and research for BASS, you know, for the duration. And I worked with him and under him in the part that was my, you know, my daily week. There is, it's partially hypothetical, but that's what you have to do in science. You make a hypothesis. (00:26:08)

[Jacques Vallee] : Now, science doesn't consist in, you know, throwing up hypotheses. I mean, that's the first half. The second half is designing research that's going to confirm or shoot down the hypothesis. And until you've done that, you haven't done science. I mean, you know, a hypothesis is a diver doesn't, okay? You have to have a way of testing it. (00:26:39)

[Ross Coulthard] : So the implications, though, of that, and I noticed this is something that you develop as well in your book, Messages of Deception, that you wrote in the 70s. And you explore the psychic and abduction elements of UAPs, the idea that UAP encounters are a deliberate mechanism to influence human consciousness, culture and societal evolution, a kind of a control system to shape human beliefs and behavior. And you speculated, and I think you were the first to do this, that this doesn't involve physical ETs, but a non-human intelligence that operates inter-dimensionally, or if Com's right, it's, what is it? Intraterrestrially, using psychic interactions to provoke psychological and cultural shifts. (00:27:31)

[Ross Coulthard] : I mean, that's a very different thesis, isn't it? And it's interesting, it struck me as interesting that Com had come to a very similar conclusion, that the two of you have kind of put to one side the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Let me ask you this way, sir. Why couldn't it be aliens from another planet playing with us and trying to control us on this planet? Why is it more plausible to you that it's an inter-dimensional or intra-terrestrial, if you like, phenomenon? (00:28:04)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, when I first decided to apply the tools I knew and the tools I had, which included computers at Paris Observatory and later in Texas and California, I tried to do what you're supposed to do in science, you know, start from the data and begin to look for patterns. That's what you do with an unknown phenomenon, you want to see if it replicates something that we already know, you know, from something else. And so I did that. (00:28:44)

[Jacques Vallee] : And in my first two books, I argued about, you know, the extraterrestrial hypothesis that this was a good approximation of what people were seeing. Then, you know, when I wrote Passport to Magonia, which antagonized people on both sides, the first edition was a complete failure. And then people thought about it and came back and it was reprinted and reprinted and reprinted. And now people consider it probably the most significant thing that I did. (00:29:28)

[Ross Coulthard] : It's a classic, Jacques. It's a classic. I love your book. (00:29:32)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, I knew that I was breaking, you know, my choice, I was just breaking everything. Because if that phenomenon has influenced us in different guises across the ages, then there are other contradictions that people were kind enough not to pin me down. But one of them, I had to think of them first, okay? One of them is how come the vehicle is the same? I mean, if you buy a car today, it's not going to look like a car you bought 10 years ago or five years ago. Okay? And the, you know, the guy will tell you in five years, it's going to look very different again. (00:30:29)

[Jacques Vallee] : Okay, maybe you should lease a car instead of buying it. So that's what we're faced with. But then, you know, that kind of difficulty, when you overcome it in science, it opens up other things. Because the argument, I was reading something this morning from a scientist, again, saying, yeah, you know, NASA has discovered something that could mean that there is life on this planet, next to a star, 140 light years away, but anyway, we can't get there. Well, why can't we get there? (00:31:12)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, we can't get there because of Einstein. And you know, Einstein said, you cannot go faster than speed of light. People now are saying, you know, I stay in touch with Eric Davis, who is my master in physics. You know, my physics is astrophysics of years ago. And it still works, but it's not up to date. Eric is up to date. And Eric says, first, you have to go do away with time and space as dimensions, because secondary things, you know, what's important is the quantum form. And given the quantum form, there is no reason why you couldn't go faster than the speed of light. (00:31:59)

[Jacques Vallee] : It's just an arbitrary limit that was, it's true, that the equations work with C, speed of light as limit. Okay, so that's good science. But there could be exceptions to that. One of the exceptions was something that we were teaching at Northwestern, Dr. Hynek was teaching it to the kids at Northwestern in the 70s, that there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us. And then it takes them five minutes to come here at whatever, you know, at the speed of light, and maybe even faster. (00:32:42)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, we cannot put limits on that. You know, that's one thing that Gary, Dr. Nolan has said very clearly, there will be, you know, revolutions in science in our last lifetime, you know, there have been, you know, revolutions, and there will be more. And this is one of them. Okay, so let's, let's stop talking about the speed of light as a limit. It's a limit in the mathematics, it's not a limit in physics. (00:33:11)

[Ross Coulthard] : So, when you explain in Messengers of Deception, what you mean, why you argue for the interdimensional hypothesis, you suggest that what they're doing, what the phenomenon is doing, is it's presenting itself in ways that challenge existing paradigms, scientific materialism, or religious dogma, it's inviting us humans to think about ourselves, if you like, ontologically, it's encouraging us to question reality. It's a long term strategy, you suggest to guide human evolution. Why? Why would another advanced life form want to guide the reality of a bunch of primitive apes on a rock in this solar system? (00:34:02)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, you could meet and interview some very good scientists who say, we live in a simulation, this is the way they simulate. So, you know, if you play a simulation on the web, you know, there is a control system. I mean, you put yourself inside the control system, or you're not a player. If you're a player, you have to agree to be part of the control system. However, when I first came up with that, I was challenged by people here in France, very good biologists from the Sorbonne and a couple of other friends who said, Jacques, you know, there are different kinds of control systems. (00:34:55)

[Jacques Vallee] : You know, the Nazi death camps were control systems. You know, I spoke to Jacques Bergier, who had been a French spy during the war, and had been one of the people locating Penemunder, you know, the rockets and turns, and was one of the first French atomists. So, he was interested in, you know, whether the Germans could build an atom bomb and so on. He said that in the camp where he was interned, because he was caught as a tortured spy and, you know, kept in those camps. All of a sudden, the firemen from Munich were arrested by the Nazi and brought into the camp for three weeks, because they had talked about going on strike. (00:35:49)

[Jacques Vallee] : And the Nazi didn't, I mean, this was the wrong time to go on strike. So, they put them there for three weeks, and then they went back, you know, to where they came from, and they were no longer on strike. So, he said, Jacques, you have to realize that even a closed control system can be a teaching center, not necessarily something where you're going to be destroyed, or you're going to be burned alive, you know. I mean, some people will be burned alive. (00:36:25)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, there are control systems that are, you know, like a system of laws or a system of prison. And there are systems that are open. A university is a control system. The rules are not written down anywhere, you know, on whether you get your PhD or not, you know, you have to maneuver, you have to find the right path through the control system. It's not written anywhere. So, which one is it? (00:37:02)

[Jacques Vallee] : I mean, that's a question. That's a basic question. (00:37:06)

[Ross Coulthard] : That's the only question. I think I know someone who would agree with you about us living in a simulation. I was watching Lex Fridman interviewing Elon Musk. And Elon Musk was asked, what would be the first question he would ask the ultimate AI? And he said, what lies outside the simulation? So, it's obviously the big question. I would never underestimate Elon Musk. (00:37:34)

[Jacques Vallee] : Many years ago, I was on a panel with him in Strasbourg about the future of space research. And he was talking about communication on the moon, you know, and he had a scheme for communicating on the moon, you know, the moon doesn't reflect radio waves. So, you can't use radio on the moon, you know, so you have to use something else. And he was busy designing it. It was very interesting. (00:38:10)

[Jacques Vallee] : But he's very different today than he was then. (00:38:13)

[Ross Coulthard] : Clearly, Jacques, what we do know, and we know this from the Tic Tac incident that I know your team were involved in researching. And one of the stories you tell in your book is an incident involving two United States RC-135 Elant aircraft who were intercepted by a UFO in the Mediterranean in November 1993. And it's an amazing story. I'd never heard it before. But essentially, the unknown craft placed itself in formation on the starboard side of the US plane, close enough so that the crew couldn't even see the whole craft. The edges appeared to scintillate, and the surface was composed of panels over inlaid panels that were rectangular and translucent, with edges that would disappear, dissolve, or go out of focus as one stared at them. (00:39:06)

[Ross Coulthard] : They were luminous, like opal with a hint of violet. And it's interesting because time and time again, and you describe this in your book, there's always these guys who turn up in suits and spoil the party by basically making people sign an NDA. So in this case, they're interviewed by men in civilian suits who turn up in a C-130 from Germany. They make each crew member sign an NDA, all the material they've obtained, all the data they've obtained is taken into custody. Did you ever find out any more about that sighting? (00:39:39)

[Ross Coulthard] : And why? Why is there this cover up? Why do these men in suits turn up to take away the data, just like they did in the 2004 Tic Tac sighting as well? What's going on? (00:39:51)

[Jacques Vallee] : You know, I've raised and run five venture funds in California. Venture funds that are dedicated to essentially the first dollar. Not financial enhancement to a company, but the first dollar. And the CEOs of those companies know, obviously know of my, you know, my track record. And they also know that I'm, you know, interested in strange things. The reason they create those companies is that they are interested in strange things too. You know, otherwise, we would be working for IBM, you know, in somebody's basement. (00:40:38)

[Jacques Vallee] : So the they, when their family sees a UFO, you know, they have, they like to have property on the coast, looking over the Pacific and so on. And they see all kinds of things. And this obviously is not reported, because we, you know, it would be controversial. And when you're running, you know, high technology company in California, you have to be taken seriously by Wall Street and by, you know, you have to keep thinking about your next round of finance, and which bank you're going to go to. So it's not the time to be in the papers, you know, talking about flying saucers. (00:41:26)

[Jacques Vallee] : But they trust me enough, over the years, they tell me what they've seen, because they think somebody should know about that. I mean, the case I mentioned was a man who was in California and now is with one of the, you know, three-letter agencies in Washington, he was coming back from actually watching some maneuvers in Southern California. And there were reports of strange things among the firing, you know, that was going on in within the maneuvers. And his question was, you know, this was not reported, you know, I saw it, because I was there. (00:42:18)

[Jacques Vallee] : And I was there to watch the proceedings and to analyze it. So I had all the information, but it didn't go anywhere. Why wasn't that reported over to Washington? Well, I said, look, you know, you have those clearances, I don't anymore. You know, why me? I mean, I can't answer that question. But he said, yeah, but you've gone to other countries where the same thing happens. There seems to be, you know, a layer of just fog over the whole thing, that those things are almost accepted as part of, you know, they show up, and they go away, and there is no need to report it. (00:43:09)

[Jacques Vallee] : And furthermore, if you report it, you could be in trouble, you know, from your superior officers. So he was, he gave me another example. This was after we had left our telephones, you know, with the waiters and so on. And we were sitting in a corner of the restaurant. And, you know, another example where a ship had encountered an American vessel, you know, Navy vessel had encountered something. This was not an image. (00:43:47)

[Jacques Vallee] : And had been seen by everybody, recordings had been taken. And, you know, some guys came on the plane, you know, landed on the carrier, went to see the commander of that fleet, and confiscated all the data and got back on their flight. He said, that's not unusual. What's unusual is that I saw the paper, nothing was signed. There was no name. That's a violation. It's a violation of security rules. (00:44:30)

[Ross Coulthard] : That's what they... Why are they doing that, though? I mean, we can tell countless of these examples. (00:44:37)

[Jacques Vallee] : You know, this is what Congress should be looking at. It's a violation of military security rules. The paper was not signed. Nobody knows who these guys were. Presumably the commander was given something that authorized this. But this overrides everything else. Now, I'm eager to, you know, this was not part of NIDS. This was not part of anything else. This was just a personal conversation with someone, you know, from... who trusts me. Because he knows, you know, this is unusual information that tends to wash up, you know, and it gets picked up. (00:45:30)

[Jacques Vallee] : But it means that there is another... as they say, you know, in some science fiction movies, there is another machine somewhere. The men in black. Yeah, maybe. Although I have trouble taking the men in black very seriously. You know, there was a witness in Texas, something had fallen from the sky, probably some piece of some Soyuz or something. And they came to his home, the guy who's a black officer who had been in Vietnam. And he said, well, this obviously came from God. So I'm not going to give it to you, because God dumped it in my garden. (00:46:19)

[Jacques Vallee] : If he had wanted you to have it, he would have dumped it at the White House, Rome, you know, and he kept it. So the men in black were defeated in that particular case. (00:46:32)

[Ross Coulthard] : So you wrote a book back in the 1960s, in 1965, called Anatomy of a Phenomenon, which made, I think, a very creditable argument for rigorous, transparent collection and study of UAP's data. You argued for physical evidence analysis and interdisciplinary research. Now, we're 60 years on from when you first made that plea for that kind of data collection and data analysis. Have we yet done what you aspired for, Jacques? Even in terms of analysis? (00:47:11)

[Ross Coulthard] : Yeah, are we really doing, is there the kind of empirical data analysis that you aspired for? (00:47:19)

[Jacques Vallee] : You know, a lot of science is empirical data, I mean, a lot of biology and a lot of... it's empirical data until somebody has, who can build a system of analysis that goes deeper inside. (00:47:41)

[Ross Coulthard] : Just to develop this, forgive me for interrupting, but for example, you were doing the great, you know, I think you were involved with NEDS, there was the ORSAP project, there was the BAS project. In each case, the wonderful research that was happening there was frustrated by budgetary concerns, or in the ORSAP case, there was obviously some kind of big gag that came down from on high, where you couldn't get special access program status. And it effectively hindered further ability to take the research any further. (00:48:16)

[Ross Coulthard] : Somebody doesn't want, I mean, you describe a UAP control mechanism, if you like, whatever the phenomenon is, it's trying to control us. Isn't there at the same time also a human control mechanism that the powers, the governments of the world, notably the United States, I think to some degree, France, even the United Kingdom, Russia, China, there seems to be some collusion to shut down public interest and study of this issue. And I'm just intrigued as to why, you know, why is there that control mechanism there? (00:48:57)

[Ross Coulthard] : What's going on? Why do they not want us to ask these questions? (00:49:01)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, you know, that's, I mean, what you're presenting is correct. I mean, that's the way it presents. In science, you know, there are many times when you think that nature is against you. And that just as you're going to discover something looking at Mars, some clouds come between you and, you know, between Mars and the telescope or something. And it looks like there is something that wants, you know, I blame myself first, you know, that I'm just not smart enough to find because, you know, nobody has come knocking on my door. I mean, admittedly, I haven't, you know, violated any rules or any laws, and I won't. (00:49:56)

[Jacques Vallee] : But I'm not a whistleblower in that case. But the fact is that usually when I attack a problem, and I fail, usually it's because I made a mistake somewhere. And I have to go back, get advice, get somebody smarter than me or better informed, or someone I'm infringing on a discipline that I thought I knew, and I don't really know it as well as I thought. So, I need advice and so on. (00:50:33)

[Jacques Vallee] : That's what I do. I mean, networking like this is, you know, the key to Silicon Valley. So, I've learned to do that. I think that there is a control mechanism outside. And in a way, it makes sense. You know, that the whole question of disclosure, what is it that we're going to disclose? You know, we're going to disclose that there is a phenomenon? Well, I can introduce you to some farmers in Kansas, who have known that for 20 years, you know, and they've seen more things than all the pilots in the Navy. Okay, I mean, and they know that and they talk to each other. (00:51:23)

[Jacques Vallee] : And they talk about, they talk to each other, they talk to the insurance companies, you know, if something happens to the cattle and so on. I mean, all those things are going on. I mean, we should stay out of Washington and look at the rest of the country. So, the question for me is, how do I, how can I build something? Not so much in the classical physics, you know, there are people who do that very well. And there's a tradition of that. (00:52:00)

[Jacques Vallee] : But there is something called information physics, you know, information and energy. We get taught in school, that those are two sides of the same coin, that information changes into energy and energy changes into information in nature, you know, let alone in the lab. Okay, nobody has really formally started teaching the physics of information. The physics of information comes right out of, of course, computer science. And there are many people who use their computer and they think they are computer scientists, because they can run a program. But that's not the point. (00:52:44)

[Jacques Vallee] : The point is you have an information machine. What we built with Mr. Bigelow was a very large information machine that was going to start giving us some answers once we find it. And we were cut off at that point. Okay, I think that what we did, it's true what you say that we were limited within BAS, you know, BAS was given some very specific tasks as was proper. But within NIDS, we didn't have, and I think NIDS was, you know, thanks to Mr. Bigelow, really deserves the credit as a researcher himself, who has had experiences himself, and he and his family. (00:53:29)

[Jacques Vallee] : And we went very far, very, very far with NIDS. In a way, BAS was a retreat from what we had done at NIDS. (00:53:39)

[Ross Coulthard] : There's a reference in your book to the Holy Grail. And I've been told a story, I've been told that what was coming out of the ORSEP project was a proposal by Lockheed Martin, that they transfer an intact craft to Robert Bigelow, and that he spent about a million dollars pre-preparing a warehouse for the receipt of that craft. And that this was going to be the next phase of, if you like, the ORSEP research going beyond the field research, the highly wonderful research that had been done by the team on the ORSEP project, that they were then going to have an intact craft that they could surveil. What happened, I understand, is that people of deep religious conviction inside the US Air Force in particular, took offence to the idea of any more serious research being done into the phenomenon. (00:54:44)

[Ross Coulthard] : And they intervened to stop the Special Access Program status being conferred to that project, which effectively gagged any further research. Am I wrong, sir? (00:54:58)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, there are two things in what you said, Ross. I mean, the first one, I cannot confirm, I was not briefed on ORSEP. I was, of course, very familiar with BAS and cleared, everybody was cleared at the same level. But this did not come up in my, you know, if it did, I would say, you know, I can't talk about it, because it would be classified. It's not within the classified briefings that I've had. So, I don't know, I cannot confirm the thing with Lockheed at all. (00:55:42)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, I'm not the guy to ask. (00:55:44)

[Ross Coulthard] : But what was the holy grail you were referring to in the book, Jacques, when you're talking about how, if the project gets SAP status, there will be a holy grail. (00:55:55)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, the fact that it is a fact that many people, but probably more within the Navy, from my own experience, than the Air Force or the Army, and those that I met, have a religious concern. You know, it may surprise you, given, you know, the fact that I haven't, I've written very little about that. But I tend to share that concern. I think we should take it into account. I respect it profoundly. (00:56:49)

[Jacques Vallee] : That has stopped me from, you know, publishing certain things that I want to think about. And I want to think about, you know, privacy of, you know, trying to put long-term, some of these long-term ideas together. Even though I'm not, you know, a practicing Christian, but I have profound respect for... (00:57:23)

[Ross Coulthard] : Yeah, I want to take you down that path, Jacques, because this is very interesting. And I'm glad you've started talking about that, because you say in your book, there's a quote, the phenomenon is hurting people. It is manifest and scary. You use the word evil. And what we've called interference, you say, is very real. And then you go on to say, as much as I thought the Collins elite, which is the term that you use for the people inside the Pentagon and the intelligence community who are blocking this, normally of a strong religious belief system, as much as I thought the Collins elite was wrong in its fundamentalist attitude, I wouldn't blame anybody for talking about demonology here. (00:58:09)

[Ross Coulthard] : That's a really interesting comment, because I have to admit, I've recently been speaking, sir, to people who've been telling me that when they've had confronting and quite terrifying experiences with the phenomenon, and I'm not in the least bit religious myself, but they've invoked the name of Jesus Christ or Mother Mary and invoked that to try and tell the phenomenon to leave them alone and go away. And in every case, they've said it's left, that it has respected that invocation of the name of Jesus or Mother Mary. Do you think it's possible the Christians are right? (00:58:48)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, I don't think all Christians adhere to this. I think it's one sort of formal interpretation of, you know, of the writings. The most Christians I meet, you know, are open to, after all, if, you know, that's a question that has gone on for ages, you know, if we've, if we stop looking at what the evil side is doing, we're in fact, turning the world over to them. I mean, so it would be like saying we're not no longer going to investigate murders, you know, I think we should know as much as we can. (00:59:52)

[Jacques Vallee] : And I think that's the view certainly of many Catholics, we should know as much as we can about the evil side. If we accept that there is an evil side, that's active, that's actually impinging on what we think what we do. (01:00:11)

[Ross Coulthard] : There's a lovely quotation you have in your book where you say, Collins elite members believe that no one should be interested in anything that comes from Satan. I say, you say, if we're about to do battle with Satan, we might as well learn everything we can about his toys. And I like that quote, because I mean, it is a silly argument that because it involves the possibility of demonology, allegedly, we should ignore it. I mean, you're quite right. (01:00:43)

[Ross Coulthard] : If even if it's evil, even if it's something malevolent, we should know about it. (01:00:48)

[Jacques Vallee] : So that raises the question of what exactly should we disclose? Because people have taken you know, have put me on the spot for saying this on another talk show that we should be, we should not disclose without thinking of the consequences of disclosure. And they say, but everybody says we should disclose. Yes. But that's true. But the moment you disclose, you have to answer 100 other questions. And many of those questions are questions about religion, questions about, you know, the basic texts. (01:01:32)

[Jacques Vallee] : Certainly, you know, my friends in Israel don't think about UFOs the way, you know, people in France or in America think about that. And I've had, you know, enough contact with people in Saudi Arabia, during meetings there and so on, to know that if you believe in the jinn, today, not the legends, the jinn today, you know, in sophisticated families, you know, in Riyadh, have had experiences with the jinn. And I was talking to them about how wonderful the, you know, Arab legends were, and they said, Jacques, you know, what Arab legends? (01:02:22)

[Jacques Vallee] : You know, we had a jinn and, you know, who turned one of our family members into a crazy automaton. And we had to call, you know, a holy man to read the part of the Quran that addresses the jinn. And you know, asking, bypassing the kid, you know, talking to the jinn inside the kid, saying, look, we have to apologize, but recognize that this is a kid, he didn't know that there could be a jinn there, he impinged on your space, he didn't know that you should please go somewhere else. Now, this is talking directly to, this is not talking to God, this is talking to the jinn. (01:03:18)

[Jacques Vallee] : Okay, this is today's Saudi Arabia, a sophisticated family that has sent one, you know, one of their sons to Stanford. So, this is real. I mean, we're not just saying, look, you know, the aliens are here, that doesn't, that's a beginning of a lot of problems. And I'm not saying we should have answers to that we don't have answers, that we should have a structure within which people can express their concerns, their terror, you know, their own experiences, and where we can discuss it. (01:04:03)

[Ross Coulthard] : There's another good reason cited in your book for why we should be cautious about what we wish for when we talk about disclosure. And that's, it's interesting, because there are polar arguments in ufology. There's one group in ufology who argue that whatever the phenomenon is, it's loving, it's kind, it's benevolent, and it bears no threat at all to humans. And that we should, we should forget this threat narrative. And they have a go at Lou Elizondo all the time for talking about threat. (01:04:36)

[Ross Coulthard] : And it's interesting, because at the other side of the pole, there are incidents that you've spent a lot of time looking at, that the Brazilian Air Force looked at in the Calaras incident, and the quite shocking chubba chubba attacks on Brazilian people during the 1970s and the 1980s. There is no doubt at all, is there, Jacques, that the phenomenon, whatever it is, has, on occasion, killed people, murdered people. (01:05:06)

[Jacques Vallee] : So I wouldn't say that. Interesting. What I would, what I said, and I know there's a, somebody has taken my, my words out of context, as often happens, is, you know, has made it sort of a joke that I believe, the, I think he used the word murder, you know, the, the, the, what has happened, and we've known that for a long time. And, you know, that's something that Ned's looked at, that Bass has looked at. Certainly in the medical files, we have instances of people losing their life as a consequence of being close to a UFO, or being exposed to the light of a UFO. And those are documented, medically, some of them medically well documented. (01:06:10)

[Jacques Vallee] : And I've participated in some of that, some of that research. Obviously, I mean, that's something that we should be interested in. (01:06:19)

[Ross Coulthard] : So that's, if you like, incidental damage, it may be that these people have just, unfortunately, come into close proximity to UAP, whatever the phenomenon is. (01:06:29)

[Jacques Vallee] : Yes, but if a six-year-old kid runs after a ball in front of a Mack truck, that girl is going to be killed. And there is nothing we can do about it. And there is nothing the driver of the Mack truck can do about it. Okay, so... What about the cases like the Chaba Chabas? Some of those are clearly accidents, okay? Yeah. That there is radiation, there is radiation we don't understand. (01:06:56)

[Ross Coulthard] : I mean, there are distressing cases, though. And I've seen the photographs from the Brazilian Air Force where they show people who have been mutilated. Dead bodies, dead bodies with holes cut into them, parts of flesh cut away. I mean, that does look like a deliberate injury. And more importantly, in the Calaras incidents, there are descriptions of people being hit with what appear to be directed beams of energy. Yes. Can we exclude the possibility that that is intentional? (01:07:31)

[Ross Coulthard] : Are you suggesting that that's incidental damage? So, I ask that question. (01:07:36)

[Jacques Vallee] : Remember, there have been expeditions since more recently and so on. But I was there when the men who had been in command, you know, invited us to the military center that controls one quarter of the Amazon, is of Amazonian descent. He speaks the dialects of the Amazon and he understands the territory. I also spoke to three of his officers separately after the discussion at the military center. We went to a private house where they wanted to show me more about what they had experienced and what the people they had interviewed. And we can't do that anymore because they are dead or they are scattered somewhere else. (01:08:39)

[Jacques Vallee] : The leader of the task force died about 10 years ago. And he was the one who spent the most time. And the reason he invited me and our group, which included Brazilians and Americans who had worked in Brazil, was that he wanted to know what was going on in France. He didn't exactly believe what he was told by his American contacts. And he wanted to combine it with what people knew in Europe. And he knew that I had done research there. (01:09:21)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, furthermore, Brazil has a common border with France, which many people don't realize until they look at the map. Okay, so that's no, a lot of funny things like that, culturally, that are just delightful. But the, there were, there was an intent to hit people. But I also spoke to the doctors who had attended to especially one woman who died, you know, in their care. And the doctor said she was in a state that was weak. She had a weak heart. (01:10:10)

[Jacques Vallee] : We knew that. We don't think, yes, she died as a result of exposure to the trauma of, you know, a big, big scene with UFOs in the sky and so on, which would have terrified anybody. It was low altitude, no craft and so on. But she died out of the trauma of the nervous, you know, reaction to this. But she was not hurt by a beam. She was not singled out to be killed. She just died there. (01:10:47)

[Jacques Vallee] : In other cases, people that I've interviewed, including one guy who was in perfect shape, was an athlete and so on, had been running all night, you know, through the forest. It's not the jungle. It's not, it's not exactly the Amazon forest. It's the border to the Amazon. So, in those days, it was an agricultural area, but unpaved and so on. And he was actually targeted by an object. They called them chupa chupa, you know, that was positioning itself within the trees to hit him with a beam. (01:11:29)

[Jacques Vallee] : And he was fortunately in good enough shape that so he would hide behind trees. He would run towards a village. He got to a village and found shelter there. But it took him a week to recover. He was just completely exhausted. And I published the picture, you know, that I recovered there of a woman who had been hit. Now, she had been hit. But what's what's interesting to the physicist is that she was pinned to her hammock. You know, when you go there, you learn very quickly, you don't want to sleep in a bed for a lot of reasons. (01:12:08)

[Jacques Vallee] : And the so she was in close to a window, there is no, there is no glass in the window, because what you want as much air to circulate as possible, you know, it's very warm, it's very wet, you know, and so on. So, she was in the hammock, light, a beam, a collimated beam, you know, came through the window from that object and hit her in the shoulder and pinned her mechanically down to the hammock. Okay, this is not just a beam we can we can do. (01:12:53)

[Jacques Vallee] : I've spoken to physicists who said, well, you could generate a force, you know, collimated within the beam and so on. I don't know what they're talking about. I just don't know. Maybe they're right. It would be, you know, it would be an interesting weapon, but, you know, it didn't, it didn't kill her. I mean, my photograph is of a doctor, you know, looking at this and attending to her. I was there 10 years later, she was fine. (01:13:28)

[Jacques Vallee] : I mean, she had recovered from that. She no longer had... (01:13:31)

[Ross Coulthard] : It all... the thing that really sticks out to me from your book is you've been doing this, Jacques, for 70 years, investigating this phenomenon, pretty much ever since you had that sighting as a young boy. Are you any closer to an answer, a definitive answer? (01:13:53)

[Jacques Vallee] : You could ask this of... you could have asked, you know, a man I worked with, you know, Professor Sturrock at Stanford, we were working on the structure of the sun and the structure of a corona. Are you closer to understanding it? And he would have said, well, we've done a few things, but, you know, there is another layer that we haven't... you could ask, you know, Dr. Nolan, are we closer to eliminating cancer? He would say, well, you know, my colleagues and I make progress every day in documenting what cancer is. (01:14:43)

[Jacques Vallee] : And we are saving a few people now that we couldn't save five years ago. And that's the job, you know, you never... once you resolve a problem in science, so you come up with relativity, you've opened up a hundred other problems. (01:15:06)

[Ross Coulthard] : Do you think we're meant to know, Jacques? I mean, do you think the phenomenon wants us? I mean, you say it's twigging our consciousness. (01:15:14)

[Jacques Vallee] : I'm treating it as, you know, the faculty of a very, very interesting, very interesting university where I have a privilege of, you know, being a student. And my professors are not the folks in Washington. I mean, they are doing their job, trying to regulate, you know, the access on a large scale for, you know, what we can do. My teachers are, you know, in Kansas and Texas and, you know, other places in the Pacific. And they tell me what they've seen. (01:15:54)

[Ross Coulthard] : Well, it's a very honorable life's work. It does beg the question, though, there's a moment in the book, and I'll wrap this up fairly soon, but there's an exchange you have with Bob Bigelow, where he says the cover-up must be the work of a supranational group, a brotherhood, rather than one single agency or country. And when I read that, it resonated with me because, of course, we've just had this new whistleblower, Matthew Brown, come out. And he said, we have, the US as a country, have allowed ourselves to be penetrated, co-opted, and corrupted by an internationalist force that serves their interests and views nations, peoples, as tools and means to an end. (01:16:44)

[Ross Coulthard] : And it struck me that both Bob Bigelow and this young fellow, Matthew Brown, have come to that similar conclusion, that whatever this is, it's beyond nations. It's an internationalist thing, supranational, as Bob Bigelow called it. What do you think? (01:17:02)

[Jacques Vallee] : So, I've, as you know, I've worked in finance for the last four years. And I've met some people who were influential in, you know, the theory of finance and internet. It's a topic that's current now in the United States, you know, with what's going to happen to the stock market and investment and so on. And in many cases, not just now, but in many cases, what happens is chaotic. I mean, you really have a feeling that there are so many variables in the system, that the only reason the system hasn't blown up is that we don't really understand what to push. (01:17:54)

[Jacques Vallee] : And it somehow reasserts itself, because there are many actors, you know, there's a theory of actors, of financial actors, you know, what you buy, what you decide not to buy until next year, you know, why you save money or why you spend money. And that's true at every level. And some of the people that I've worked with, and some of the people from whom we got funds for venture capital, those are the leaders of, you know, bank investment in unknown future areas, you know, venture capital, venture is, you know, and venture has a different exception in French than it does, it's a French word, okay. (01:18:50)

[Jacques Vallee] : And then it is in Anglo Saxon, the French think venture is a danger, you know, you tell your kid, don't venture into this. And in the US, which I find delightful, is the venture is, you know, like the great explorers, you know, the sails of the, you know, of the ships moving across the ocean, thinking that there may be an abyss, you know, where the ship is going to fall anytime. But then that's how you discover India. And then you realize you were not in India, you were in America, and India is somewhere else. (01:19:34)

[Jacques Vallee] : But that's, that's the way, you know, venture works. And that's been my world for 40 years, you know, you take intelligent risk, you know, that you if you want to take risk, you go to Vegas, okay, you know, that if you come to Silicon Valley, you have a reason to write a particular check. And so you have to think about where the money comes from and how it's regulated. And there is, I'm convinced that there is no superior, you know, cohort or cabal of extremely wise financiers who decide, you know, now we're going to give precedence to China or India. There are people who think that. (01:20:25)

[Jacques Vallee] : But there are people who think exactly the opposite, and they're going to be fighting. And I've been on enough boards, you know, watching the interaction and the fight on the board. Of course, the board, you know, report is not going to reflect the fact that, you know, they were at each other's throat for two hours. And the there is an impression of a great mystery unfolding in finance and the way computers came about the way the web came about and so on. It's not that. (01:21:06)

[Jacques Vallee] : It's not that it's guy, you know, mostly guys sitting together. Now, fortunately, some women as well, and are fighting not so much for the money. I mean, again, the money is, I mean, the money is important. But I've seen companies that had no money and changed the world in their own area. Okay. Again, it's not the money, it's an alignment of will among knowledgeable people. And I think that's what we're dealing with. (01:21:50)

[Jacques Vallee] : Now, I've been with UFOs, I haven't found them yet. I don't think there is a board of directors. (01:21:58)

[Ross Coulthard] : Well, without risk, there is no reward. And certainly Jacques Vallée, you more than anyone in the last 70 years have ventured into the realm of the paranormal and the unidentified anomalous phenomena with rigor and vigor. And I think I speak for everyone when I say thank you for the work that you've done. And I sincerely hope that both of us in our lifetimes get the answer as to what is truly going on. Because I don't know how you've done it for 70 years, but I find it intensely frustrating that it's so hard to find the answer. (01:22:34)

[Jacques Vallee] : Well, you have the key to that with all the people at your meeting now. Certainly what's going to happen in Washington in the next few weeks is going to be fascinating. So I salute what you're doing. (01:22:49)

[Ross Coulthard] : Jacques, I salute you back, sir. Thank you so much for speaking to Reality Check. And congratulations on your latest book. And I look forward, sir, to many, many more. And thank you for your contribution to ufology. Thank you. And before we go, please don't forget we do our weekly question and answer, and we need your questions. So please send your questions in by email to realitycheck at newsnationnow.com. Looking forward to hearing from you. (01:23:25)

[Ross Coulthard] : Thanks for watching. Go to joinnn.com to find NewsNation on your television provider. And please don't forget to click that red subscribe button to ensure you get more of NewsNation's unbiased and fact-driven news coverage. (01:23:45)

(2025-09-07)