George Knapp + Colm Kelleher : Skinwalker Ranch とヒッチハイカー現象を語る
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George Knapp + Colm Kelleher : Skinwalker Ranch とヒッチハイカー現象を語る （全発言＋日本語訳） ：改訂版
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UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果
この文書は、ポッドキャスト「UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果」からの抜粋であり、UFO現象と「ヒッチハイカー効果」を論じています。ホストのカート・ジャイムンガルは、受賞歴のあるジャーナリストであるジョージ・ナップと生化学者のコルム・ケレハーを迎え、彼らの著書『Skinwalkers at the Pentagon』にも触れています。
対談では、スキンウォーカー・ランチを訪れた人々にポルターガイスト現象や未確認生物の目撃といった異常な現象がつきまとい、さらに家族や近隣住民にまで広がるという「ヒッチハイ カー効果」の性質について詳しく掘り下げられています。
また、米国国防情報局（DIA）が資金提供した大規模な先進航空宇宙兵器システム応用プログラム（AAWSAPまたはOSAP）がUFO問題をどのように調査し、その中で医療上の影響や、現象が国家安全保障上の脅威ではなく人間の健康への脅威であるという結論に至ったことなどが議論されています。
目次
- 全体俯瞰
- ヒッチハイカー現象の解説
- ヒッチハイカー効果(HE)
- OSAP プログラム(AAWSAP)
- UFO 現象の健康被害
- UFO の起源と意図
- SWR でのクリプト生物
- その他の関連トピック
- 事例分析
- 情報源
- 文字起こし（話者識別）
全体俯瞰
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果：主要テーマと洞察に関するブリーフィング
要旨
本ブリーフィングは、ジョージ・ナップ氏とコルム・ケレハー氏へのインタビューに基づき、UFO現象、特に「ヒッチハイカー効果」と米国防総省の調査プログラムに関する核心的な洞察をまとめたものである。主要な結論は以下の通りである。
- ヒッチハイカー効果の実在と伝染性: 「ヒッチハイカー効果」は、UFOとの遭遇やスキンウォーカー・ランチのような特異現象多発地帯を訪れた個人とその家族に、ポルターガイスト現象、未確認生物の目撃、物理的な影響などが追随する、再現性のある現象である。この効果はウイルスのように人から人へと広がる可能性が示唆されており、単なる心理現象ではなく、物理的な痕跡を残す場合もある。
- OSAPプログラムの真の規模と範囲: 米国国防情報局（DIA）が2200万ドルの資金を提供したOSAPプログラムは、後に知られるようになったAATIPとは比較にならないほど大規模なUFO研究であった。50人以上の常勤職員を擁し、その調査対象はスキンウォーカー・ランチに留まらず、海軍の「チックタック」事件の工学的分析、ロシアのUFO文書の翻訳・分析、全米各地のUFO遭遇事例など、多岐にわたっていた。
- UFO遭遇がもたらす深刻な健康被害: OSAPプログラムの最も重要な発見の一つは、UFOとの近接遭遇が人体に深刻かつ長期的な医学的影響を及ぼすという事実である。事例として、青いオーブが体を通過した後に稀な癌を発症したバイオテクノロジストや、巨大な黒い三角形から青い光線を浴びて放射線被曝に似た症状を呈した男性のケースが報告されている。UFO現象は「国家安全保障上の脅威」と断定されなかったが、「人間の健康に対する脅威」であると結論付けられた。
- 現象の複雑性と欺瞞的な性質: UFO現象の起源と意図は依然として不明である。単純な地球外生命体（ET）仮説では説明がつかない、時空間を操作する能力が示唆されている。現象はしばしば「トリックスター（いたずら者）」的な性質を見せ、観測者を欺き、誤解させる。その正体は、地球外、異次元、未来人、あるいは地球由来の未知の存在など、複数の可能性が考 えられる。
- 二重の欺瞞構造: UFO現象の分析を困難にしている要因として、二重の欺瞞構造が存在する。一つは、米軍が自国の先進技術プログラムを隠蔽するためにUFO現象を利用すること。もう一つは、UFO現象自体が米軍の極秘プロジェクト（ブラック・トライアングルなど）を模倣しているように見えることである。このため、何が「我々のもの」で何が「彼らのもの」かを見分けることは極めて困難である。
1. ヒッチハイカー効果の定義と特徴
「ヒッチハイカー効果」とは、UFO現象やスキンウォーカー・ランチのような特定の場所で異常現象に遭遇した人物が、その場を離れた後も、自宅や家族にまで不可解な現象が追随・拡散する事象を指す。これは単一の効果ではなく、複数の効果（effects）からなる複合的な現象である。
現象の概要
- 発生源: スキンウォーカー・ランチ訪問者、UFO遭遇者など。
- 現象の内容:
- オーブや未確認飛行物体の自宅周辺での目撃。
- ポルターガイスト様の活動（物が飛ぶ、物が移動する）。
- 影のような人影や未確認生物（クリプト・クリーチャー）の目撃。
- 家族（配偶者、子供）への現象の拡散。
- 性質: ウイルスのように伝染し、良性の場合もあるが、多くは不快で恐ろしい体験を伴う。肯定的な効果は報告されていない。
主な事例
| 事例対象者 | 発生経緯 | 主な現象 |
|---|---|---|
| 「アクセルロッド」氏（仮名）とその家族 | DIAの諜報員であるアクセルロッド氏がスキンウォーカー・ランチを訪問後、バージニア州の自宅に帰宅。 | - 妻が庭で木に寄りかかる二本足の狼のような生物を目撃。 - 数日後、子供たちが同じ生物を目撃し、二本足で走って逃げるのを見る。 - 家の中で影のような人影や物の移動が発生。 - 現象は子供たちの友人や近所の住民にも拡散した。 |
| 女性諜報員 | スキンウォーカー・ランチで「ダイノ・ビーバー」と呼ばれる未確認生物に遭遇。 | - 帰宅後、ワインボトルが部屋を横切って壁に激突。 - ベッドの横に人影が出現。 - 婚約者だったルームメイトが恐怖で家を出て、関係が破綻。 - 現象は数年間継続した。 |
| ジョージ・ナップ氏の妻 | ナップ氏がスキンウォーカー・ランチから持ち帰った物を通じて現象が誘発された。 | - 自宅の上空に浮かぶ青いオーブを目撃。 - 寝室で非常に恐ろしい体験をし、再発を望まなかった。 |
伝染性と再現性
ケレハー氏によれば、ヒッチハイカー効果は非常に再現性が高い。
- NIDS時代（1990年代〜2003年）: 訪問者たちが同様の現象を経験。
- NIDSとOSAPの中間期: 牧場に配備された警備員十数名が自宅に現象を持ち帰る。
- OSAP時代（2008年〜2010年）: DIAの要請で派遣された5人の軍情報部員が100%の確率で現象を経験。
- 現オーナー時代（2016年〜）: 当初懐疑的だった新チームのメンバーも、自宅で同様の現象を経験。
この効果はスキンウォーカー・ランチ特有のものではなく、UFO現象全般に関連している可能性があり、1947年のケネス・アーノルド事件の目撃者家族も、後年になって自宅でオーブを目撃するなどの体験を語っている。
2. OSAPプログラム：規模と範囲
OSAP（先進航空宇宙兵器システム応用プログラム）は、DIA（国防情報局）の資金提供と監督の下で実施された、米国政府史上最大級のUFO研究プログラムである。
OSAPとAATIPの混同
2017年のニューヨーク・タイムズの報道で有名になったAATIP（先進航空宇宙脅威識別プログラム）は、OSAPから派生した小規模な後継プログラムである。しばしば混同されるが、両者は全く異なる規模と内容を持つ。
- OSAP:
- 資金: DIAから2200万ドル。
- 期間: 2008年〜2010年の24ヶ月間。
- 人員: 50人以上の常勤職員と数百の下請け業者。
- 契約者: ロバート・ビゲロー氏のBAASS（ビゲロー先進航空宇宙システム）。
- 規模: プロジェクト・ブルーブックやAATIPを遥かに凌駕する。
- AATIP:
- OSAPの残骸から生まれた、より小規模な取り組み。
- ルイス・エリゾンド氏が指揮した。
プログラムの規模とリソース
OSAPは、UFO分野では稀に見る潤沢な資金と人材に恵まれていた。
- 巨大なデータベース: ジャック・ヴァレ氏が構想したデータウェアハウスには、プロジェクト・ブルーブック、NIDS、ブラジル政府などのファイルを含む20万件以上のUFOケースが統合されていた。AIを用いてパターン分析を行う計画もあったが、プログラムの早期終了により実現しなかった。
- 広範な調査: DIAに104件の個別報告書を提出。そのうちスキンウォーカー・ランチに関するものは少数派だった。
調査範囲：スキンウォーカー・ランチを超えて
OSAPの調査は、特定の場所に限定されず、多岐にわたるテーマを扱った。
- チックタック事件: 海軍のチックタックUFO遭遇事件の調査を開始したのはOSAPであり、ANSYSマルチフィジックス解析や計算流体力学を用いた140ページ以上の詳細な工学分析レポートをDIAに提出した。
- ロシアのUFO文書: ジョージ・ナップ氏がロシアから持ち帰った文書を3人の翻訳者を雇って分析。ソ連が1990年代初頭に政府部門、大学、軍事部隊「73790」を巻き込んだ国家レベルの大規模なUFOデータ収集プログラムを持っていたことを明らかにした。
- 全米の事例: ジョージア州の不可解な事件、ケンタッキー州のメン・イン・ブラック様の事件、南カリフォルニアでの一家によるエイリアン遭遇事件など、全米各地の事例を調査した。
「証拠が導くところに従う」というアプローチ
OSAPの基本方針は、UFOの技術、脅威、再現可能性に主眼を置きつつも、「証拠が導くあらゆる場所へ従う」ことであった。これにより、幽霊やポルターガイスト、未確認生物といった、従来のUFO研究では敬遠されがちな超常現象的な側面にも踏み込んで調査が行われた。このアプローチこそが、UFOという謎を解明するために不可欠であるとナップ氏は強調している。
3. UFO遭遇による医学的・物理的影響
OSAPプログラムの調査を通じて、UFOとの近接遭遇が人体に深刻な医学 的影響を及ぼす多くの事例が確認された。これはNIDS時代にはあまり見られなかった特筆すべき発見点である。
オレゴン州のバイオテクノロジストの事例
- 遭遇: 車で走行中、娘が3つの青いUFOを目撃。そのうち1つが車内に入り、バイオテクノロジストの左肩から右上半身を通過して右肩から抜けていった。
- 本人の感覚: 痛みはなく、巨大な泡が体内を移動するような違和感と軽いめまいのような感覚を覚えた。
- 身体的影響:
- 24〜48時間後、顔の左側が日焼けのようになり、耳が腫れ、左目の視力が低下。
- 1〜2週間後、頭の左側の髪が抜け始める。
- 数ヶ月後、転移性のない稀な形態の導管癌を発症。
- 医学的分析: OSAPは医師を派遣し、長期間にわたる追跡調査を実施。遭遇前後の血液サンプルを比較分析し、好中球リンパ球比など免疫系の劇的な変化を記録。遭遇と健康被害の因果関係を高い確度で結論付けた。
ジョージア州のブラック・トライアングル遭遇事例
- 遭遇: 自宅上空に静かに浮かぶ巨大な黒い三角形（フットボール場サイズ）に遭遇。懐中電灯を向けたところ、即座に直径約30cmの強烈な青い光線を浴びせられた。
- 身体的影響:
- 強い熱を感じ、首と背中に日焼けのような症状。
- 翌朝、口の中に強い金属味、頭痛、体調不良を覚える。
- 首の後ろの髪が抜け始め、体内に良性の腫瘍が多発し、キャッスルマン病と診断された。
- 仮説: 症状の組み合わせから、非電離放射線（non-ionizing radiation）による被曝が原因であるという仮説が立てられた。ただし、具体的な波長や強度は特定できなかった。
健康への脅威としてのUFO現象
UFO現象の「意図」は不明なままであるため、OSAPは最終報告書で「国家安全保障上の脅威である」とは断定しなかった。しかし、数々の事例に基づき、「人間の健康に対する脅威である」と明確に結論付けた。この研究は、後にCIAの依頼でゲイリー・ノーラン博士らが行った研究にも影響を与えている。
4. 現象の性質と起源に関する考察
75年以上にわたる調査にもかかわらず、UFO現象の正体、起源、目的といった根源 的な問いに対する答えは出ていない。ナップ氏とケレハー氏の議論は、単純なET仮説を超える複雑な可能性を示唆している。
地球外仮説を超えて
- 多様な可能性: 現象の正体は、地球外生命体（ET）、異次元からの存在、タイムトラベラー、あるいは地球内部や地球上に潜む未知の存在（クリプト・テレストリアル）など、複数の仮説が考えられる。単一の存在ではなく、異なるアジェンダを持つ複数の知性が関与している可能性もある。
- 時空間の操作: 現象が示す技術は、時空間や重力を操作する能力を示唆しており、単に他の惑星から来訪しているという説明では不十分であるとジャック・ヴァレ博士は指摘している。
- 古代からの存在: UFO様の現象は人類の有史以来、あらゆる文化・大陸で報告されており、人類よりも長く地球に存在している可能性が示唆されている。
トリックスター的性質と欺瞞
- 予測不可能性: スキンウォーカー・ランチでの現象は予測不可能で、観測者が何をしようとしているかを事前に察知しているかのように振る舞う。
- 欺瞞と誤誘導: 現象はしばしば嘘をつき、観測者を欺き、誤った方向へ導く。CIAのジム・セミバン氏によれば、彼 らは様々な姿をとり、その出自についても信頼できる情報を提供しない。
- 意図の不明瞭さ: 時には人類の発展や環境問題に関心を示すようなメッセージを伝える一方、人間に対して全く無関心であるかのように振る舞うこともある。その真の意図やアジェンダを特定することは困難である。
意識と観測者効果の役割
インタビューの終盤で、現象と人間の意識との関係性が重要なテーマとして浮上した。
- 意識の根本性: ケレハー氏は、ベルナルド・カストラップやドナルド・ホフマンといった研究者の名を挙げ、意識が脳内の神経化学的活動の副産物ではなく、より根源的な存在である可能性に言及した。
- 「ダッシュボード」の比喩: 人間の知覚は、航空機の計器盤（ダッシュボード）のようなものであり、我々は五感という計器を通じて現実を認識しているに過ぎない。UFO現象は、その計器盤の外側で起きている出来事である可能性がある。
- 今後の研究の方向性: UFO現象を解明するためには、従来の物理的な性能分析だけでなく、意識、心理学、長期的な人間への影響といった、より広範なフレームワークで調査する必要がある。軍の安全保障という狭い視点だけでは、現象の全体像を見逃す可能性が高い。
5. 未確認生物（クリプト・クリーチャー）と異常現象
UFO現象は、しばしば未確認生物の目撃と関連して報告される。特にスキンウォーカー・ランチでは、自然界には存在しない奇妙な生物が多数目撃されている。
スキンウォーカー・ランチでの目撃例
- ダイノ・ビーバー (Dino Beaver):
- 目撃者: コルム・ケレハー氏、女性諜報員（ジュリエット・ウィット）。
- 状況: 夜間、牧草地で監視中に、体重100〜150ポンド（約45〜68kg）ほどの生物が音もなく移動しているのを目撃。
- 特徴: 背骨からブロック状の突起があり、小型のステゴサウルスに似ていた。平らな尾を持ち、地面近くを這うように移動していた。目撃中は周囲の虫の音などが完全に消える「沈黙の円錐」のような状態だった。
- 狼男 (Wolf Creature):
- 目撃者: 「アクセルロッド」氏の妻と子供たち。
- 状況: 自宅の庭で、木に寄りかかり腕を組んで立っている二本足の狼のような生物を目撃。後日、子供たちが目撃した際には二本足で走り去った。
- 物理的証拠: 生物が寄りかかっていた木には、後日、はっきりとした爪痕が残されていた。
文化横断的な類似性
ビッグフットやドッグマン、狼男のような未確認生物の目撃談は、北米だけでなく世界中のあらゆる文化圏で報告されており、普遍的な側面を持つ可能性がある。スキンウォーカー・ランチでは、これらの様々なタイプの生物が混在して目撃されている。
6. 政府の関与と二重の欺瞞
UFO現象の調査を複雑にしているのは、米国政府や軍の関与と、それに伴う意図的な情報操作である。
ブラック・ヘリコプターの謎
UFO目撃やキャトル・ミューティレーションの現場周辺では、所属不明の黒いヘリコプターが頻繁に目撃される。
- マルムストローム空軍基地の事例: 1970〜80年代、基地周辺でのUFO多発と並行して、50〜100件の所属不明ヘリコプターが目撃された。基地司令官が追跡を試みたが、その出所を特定することはできなかった。
- 二重の可能性: これらのヘリコプターは、(1)現象を監視している米国の政府機関のものである可能性と、(2)UFO現象そのものがヘリコプターの形をとっ て現れている可能性、の両方が考えられる。
UFO現象を利用した隠蔽工作
元空軍特別捜査局のバリー・ヘネシー大佐の証言によれば、空軍は1970〜80年代に、自国の先進航空機プログラムを隠蔽する目的でUFO現象を意図的に利用していた。例えば、ニューメキシコ州北部で極秘の機体が墜落した際、それがUFOであったかのような噂を増幅させることで、真相を隠蔽した。
現象による軍事技術の模倣
一方で、UFO現象自体が米軍の極秘プロジェクト（Special Access Programs）を模倣しているかのような事例も多数報告されている。
- ブラック・トライアングル: 米国、ヨーロッパ、南米で多数目撃されている巨大な黒い三角形の飛行物体は、多くの人が米軍の極秘機体だと想像する外見を持つ。しかし、これらの物体が人口密集地の上空を低空で、明るく照明をつけて飛行するなど、極秘プログラムの運用規則を著しく逸脱した行動をとる事例が数百件も報告されている。これは、現象が意図的に軍事技術を模倣し、混乱を生み出している可能性を示唆している。
7. キャトル・ミューティレーションに関する法医学的調査（NIDS時代）
OSAPプログラムでは調査対象外とされたが、その前身であるNIDS（国立発見科学研究所）は、キャトル・ミューティレーション（家畜の切断死体）の法医学的調査に精力的に取り組んだ。
法医学的アプローチと発見
- 体制: NIDSは、獣医師、病理学者、警察官、分析ラボのネットワークを構築し、事件発生後迅速に現場に駆けつけ、サンプルを採取できる体制を整えていた。
- 分析手法: ガスクロマトグラフィー質量分析、液体クロマトグラフィー質量分析など、最新の分析化学技術を駆使してサンプルを分析した。
- 発見:
- 死体からオキサンドールやサクシニルコリンといった鎮静剤が検出された事例があった。
- 動物の死体の下から10ゲージの注射針などの医療器具が発見された。
- 組織病理学分析により、鋭利な刃物が使用されたことが明白になった。
二層仮説：謎の実行者と人間の介入
これらの発見から、NIDSはキャトル・ミューティレーションに少なくとも2つの異なる実行者がいるという仮説を立てた。
- 謎の実行者（本来の現象）:
- 何十年にもわたり、夜間に外科的な精度で動物を解体し、特定の臓器を持ち去る。
- 血液や痕跡を全く残さず、時には高熱の器具を使用した痕跡がある。
- NIDSが調査した大半のケースはこちらに該当し、人間による介入の証拠は見つからなかった。
- 人間の介入（模倣犯または別目的の実行者）:
- 「宇宙人による犯行」という超常的な謎の傘の下で活動する、人間による小規模なチーム。
- 目的として、英国で問題となったプリオン（狂牛病の原因）のような感染性因子の蔓延を監視するため、野生の家畜からサンプルを採取している可能性が考えられた。
スキンウォーカー・ランチでの不可解な事例
人間の介入仮説では説明できない、極めて不可解な事例も報告されている。
- 子牛の消失事件: 晴れた日曜の昼間、牧場主夫妻がタグを付けたばかりの子牛が、約30分後に、血一滴ない骨と皮だけの状態（約75ポンドの肉が消失）で発見された。捕食動物や人間の痕 跡は一切なく、音も聞こえなかった。調査の結果、大型の刃物とメスのような精密な刃物の2種類が使われたことが判明したが、どのように実行されたかは全くの謎である。
ヒッチハイカー現象の解説
ようこそ、スキンウォーカーランチへ：お持ち帰り厳禁の「ヒッチハイカー効果」
導入：家に「何か」を連れて帰ってしまう不思議な現象
もし、ある謎めいた場所を訪れたことで、目に見えない「何か」を自宅に連れて帰ってしまうとしたら、どうしますか？
これは、超常現象のホットスポットとして知られる「スキンウォーカーランチ」で報告されている奇妙な現象、「ヒッチハイカー効果」の核心を突く問いです。この現象は、牧場の訪問者が、そこから遠く離れた自宅で、説明のつかない出来事に遭遇するというものです。
この解説では、この不可解な効果について、実際に起きた衝撃的なエピソードを交えながら、このトピックに初めて触れる方にも分かりやすく解き明かしていきます。
この奇妙な「ヒッチハイカー」を理解するためには、まずその発生源である、悪名高きスキンウォーカーランチへと旅をしなくてはなりません。
1. すべての始まりの場所：スキンウォーカーランチとは？
スキンウォーカーランチは、米国ユタ州にある広大な私有地で、長年にわたりUFOの目撃、未確認生物（クリプティッド）、ポルターガイストのような現象など、異常な出来事が集中的に報告されてきた場所です。その特異性は単なる噂話の域をはるかに超えています。米国防情報局（DIA）のような主要な諜報機関が資金提供したOSAPプログラムをはじめとする、政府による本格的な調査の対象となってきたという事実。それは、スキンウォー カーランチを不気味な民間伝承の集合体から、国家安全保障に関わる可能性のある問題へと引き上げ、そこで報告される現象を我々が最大限の真剣さをもって受け止めるべきことを意味しています。
しかし、これらの調査が進む中で、研究者たちはある不穏なパターンに気づき始めました。それは、牧場で起きる現象が、必ずしもその敷地内にとどまらないという事実でした。
2. 「ヒッチハイカー効果」の正体
「ヒッチハイカー効果」とは、単一の現象を指す言葉ではありません。調査ジャーナリストのジョージ・ナップ氏が指摘するように、それは「多くの効果」の集合体です。その核心的な概念は、次のように説明できます。
「人々がこの土地を訪れ、異常な現象に遭遇する…そして家に帰ると、自宅でオーブ（謎の光球）や飛行物体、未確認生物のような存在に遭遇したり、ポルターガイスト現象が勃発したりするのです」
報告されている主な現象は、複数の事例を横断して見られ、以下のカテゴリーに分類できます。
- ポルターガイスト現象: 物が勝手に動く現象。例えば、ある女性エージェントの自宅では、ワインボトルが部屋の一方から反対側の壁に向かって飛んでいき、粉々に砕け散るといった出来事が報告されています。
- 謎の存在の目撃: 家の中やその周辺で、影のような人影、青いオーブのような奇妙な光（ナップ氏の妻が目撃） 、さらには奇怪な生物が目撃されます。
- 奇妙な出来事: 「トリックスター（いたずら好き）」的な活動も含まれます。ある家庭では、飼い犬がいつの間にか家の屋根の上にいた、という信じがたい出来事も起きました。この「トリックスター」という言葉が重要です。それは、これらの出来事がランダムな発生ではなく、観察者を弄ぶかのような、意識的で知的、そしてしばしば巧妙な何らかの力の存在を示唆しており、体系的な科学的調査を著しく困難にしています。
これらは単なる説明ではなく、経験豊富なプロフェッショナルたちに実際に起こった、しばしば恐ろしい体験なのです。
3. 実際に起きた衝撃的なエピソード
3.1. 「アクセルロッド」一家を襲った狼男
ある情報機関の高官（仮名：アクセルロッド氏）は、牧場を訪れた際、夜の敷地内で突然、劇的な冷気に包まれ、「脅威的な存在」の気配を感じました。しかし、本当の恐怖は彼が帰宅してから始まりました。そして奇妙なことに、最初に影響を受けたのは彼の家族でした。
- 妻の目撃 自宅の庭で、狼のような生物が二本足で立ち、その前脚を組んで木にもたれかかっているのを妻が目撃しました。
- 子供たちの目撃 数日後、今度は子供たちが同じ生物を目撃。その生物は二本足で通りを走り去っていきました。
- 現象の拡大 やがて、その影響は子供たちから近所の友人へと広がっていきました。
この他にも、一家は家の中で影のような人影を目撃するなど、不可解な現象に悩まされました。
3.2. 女性エージェントとポルターガイスト
「非常に経験豊富で、百戦錬磨のプロ」と評されるある女性エージェントも、ヒッチハイカー効果の標的となりました。彼女が自宅に戻ると、ほぼ間髪入れずにポルターガイスト現象が「爆発的」に発生し始めました。
- 部屋の端からワインボトルが飛んできて、反対側の壁に激突して砕け散った。
- ベッドの脇に、人ならざる存在の姿を見た。
この活動は非常に激しく、彼女の婚約者は恐怖のあまり家を出ていき、二人の関係は終わりを告げてしまいました。
3.3. 調査員自身の体験
この現象は、調査を行っている当事者でさえも例外ではありません。調査ジャーナリストのジョージ・ナップ氏は、自身は牧場で何も見たことがないにもかかわらず、彼の妻が自宅で奇妙な体験をしました。
- 妻は、家の周りを浮遊する青いオーブを目撃した。
- 寝室で「非常に恐ろしい体験」をした。
このように、調査の当事者を素通りしてその家族に影響が及ぶという予測不可能性は、この現象が持つトリックスター的な性質の典型的な現れと言えるでしょう。これらの恐ろしい話には共通の糸口が見られます。それは、この現象が目に見えない伝染病のように、人から人へと広がっていくように見えるということです。
4. ウイルスのように広がる現象
ジョージ・ナップ氏や科学者のコルム・ケレハー氏が指摘するように、ヒッチハイカー効果はまるでウイルスのように拡散します。前述の「アクセルロッド」一家の事例は、その典型的な感染パターンを示しています。
- ステップ1： 牧場を訪れた本人（一次感染者）から始まる。
- ステップ2： すぐに配偶者や子供など、近親者へと広がる。
- ステップ3： さらに、隣人や学校の友人といったコミュニティへと拡大していく可能性がある。
特筆すべきは、この効果が非常に再現性が高いという点です。牧場調査の異なる時代（NIDS、OSAP、そして現在のチーム）を通じて、多くの人々が同様の体験をしています。さらに、当初は懐疑的だった人々でさえも、この現象の影響を受けているのです。
しかし、これらはすべて想像の産物ということはないのでしょうか？あるいは、何か具体的な物理的証拠は存在するのでしょうか？
5. ただの幻覚ではない証拠
ヒッチハイカー効果は、単なる心理的な現象ではなく、物理的な痕跡を残すことがあります。
- 物理的な痕跡 アクセルロッド氏のケースでは、妻が狼のような生物がもたれかかっていたのを目撃した後、家族がその木を調べると、「まさにその木に、非常に明らかな爪痕」が残されていました。
- 身体への影響 アクセルロッド氏の息子の1人は、寝室で激しいオーブの活動があった夜の後、体に物理的な痕跡を伴って目覚めました。彼の体には「赤く、濡れたようなみみず腫れ」ができており、救急外来（ER）に連れて行かれるほどでした。
さらに、スキンウォーカーランチに限定されず、UFO現象全般との近接遭遇は、希少疾患の発症など、深刻かつ危険な長期的健康被害につながる可能性があることも指摘されています。
こうした物理的な証拠は極めて重要です。なぜなら、それは被害者が受ける深刻な心理的・精神的トラウマが、単なる妄想の産物ではなく、目に見え、時には暴力的な現実世界の出来事への直接的な反応であることを裏付けているからです。
物理的な証拠と現実世界への影響を伴うヒッチハイカー効果は、単なる幽霊話の域を超え、深遠かつ未解決の ミステリーの領域へと足を踏み入れています。
6. 結論：解明されていない謎
ヒッチハイカー効果は、スキンウォーカーランチ（および他のUFO遭遇現場）の訪問者が、自宅までついてくる不可解な現象を体験し、それが他者へも広がっていく、再現性のある現象です。
しかし、その根本的な疑問は未解決のままです。専門家たちでさえ、「それがどのように機能するのか、なぜ起こるのか正確には分かっていない」のです。
最終的に、ヒッチハイカー効果は私たちの現実認識そのものに挑戦状を突きつけてきます。それは予測可能な物理法則というより、むしろ目に見えない知的な寄生体のように振る舞います。自ら宿主を選び、その家までついて行き、そして我々の世界と、不可解でしばしば恐ろしい独自のルールで相互作用するのです。
ヒッチハイカー効果(HE)
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）というより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源はヒッチハイカー効果について、その定義、症状、伝播性、そして広範なUFO現象との関連性の両方について説明しています。
ヒッチハイカー効果 (HE) の定義と性質
ジョージ・ナップ氏によると、「ヒッチハイカー効果」（HE）はおそらく単数形ではなく複数形であるべきだと指摘されています。なぜなら、多くの種類の効果が存在するからです。
- 定義：この効果は、スキンウォーカー・ランチを訪れ、何か異常なものに遭遇した人々が、「何か」を自宅に持ち帰ってしまったという相関関係の中で、最初にBAS（Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Systems）のチームによって確認されました。
- ウイルスのよう：この現象がどのように機能し、なぜ起こるのかは不明ですが、何度も繰り返し発生しており、まるでウイルスのように広がるとされています。
- 性質：HEは非常に再現性があることがわかっています。効果の中には良性で興味深いものもありますが、恐ろしいものもあれば、有害なものもあります。ナップ氏はポジティブな側面について聞いたことはないと述べています。
症状と伝播
HEは、個人が遭遇した後、その自宅で超常現象的な活動を引き起こすことによって特徴づけられます。また、その効果は家族にも広がる傾向があります。
主な症状には以下のようなものがあります。
- 自宅での活動：オーブ、飛行物体、クリプトタイプの生命体 による訪問、そしてポルターガイストに似た種類の活動が発生します。
- 具体的活動例：本で詳細が語られている事例として、ワインボトルが部屋を横切って壁に激突する、ベッドの脇に生命体が見られる、物事が勝手に動き回る、飼い犬が屋根の上で見つかる といった現象があります。
- 生命体の遭遇：ある情報当局者（アックスルロッド）の妻は、庭で2本足で立っているオオカミのような生き物を目撃しました。その数日後、その子供たちもその生き物が2本足で走っているのを目撃し、近所の友人にも広がりました。また、別の女性捜査官は、カーム氏と共に「ディノビーバー」と呼ばれるク リプト生命体に遭遇した後、帰宅後すぐにポルターガイストのような活動の爆発を経験しました。
- 身体的影響：HEは単なる心の現象ではなく、物理的な影響を伴うことがあります。アックスルロッド氏の子供の1人は、オーブに取り囲まれた夜の後、身体に物理的な痕跡（赤く湿ったみみず腫れ）が残り、インフルエンザのような強い症状で救急治療室に運ばれました。また、現場には木に爪痕が残るなどの物理的な証拠が見られた事例もあります。
伝播性（伝染性）について、質問者から「人から人へ広がるにつれて深刻度は低下するのか」という問いかけがありましたが、研究者らはこれについて完全に把握しているわけではありません。
- アックスルロッドの事例では、効果は近隣住民や学校の子供たちにまで拡散しました。
- ウイルスの感染能力を示す$R_0$の概念に言及しつつ、ヒッチハイカー効果の疫学的分析が求められているものの、事例数（N）が非常に少ないため、その広がりを完全に文書化できていないとコルム・ケレハー氏は述べています。
UFO現象とのより大きな関連性
HEはスキンウォーカー・ランチ特有の現象ではなく、はるかに広範なスケールで発生しています。
- UFOとの関連：スキンウォーカー・ランチを訪れたことがないものの、UFO現象と関わった人々も、場合によってはHEの要素を報告しています。
- 歴史的観測：1947年のケネス・アーノルドのUFO目撃事例まで遡る可能性が示唆されています。アーノルド氏の娘は、彼の死後、自宅でオーブを見た経験について語っています。
- 健康への脅威：UFOに長時間または近距離で接触する人々には、重度の医学的および健康上の影響（疾病など）があり、それは単なるポルターガイストのような活動に留まりません。これは、BAS/OSAPプログラムのためにキット・グリーン博士が書いた報告書（DIRD）によって調査されており、後のゲイリー・ノーラン博士らの研究に影響を与えました。
- 非電離放射線の仮説：UFOに近接遭遇した人々の医療症状（日焼け、脱毛、頭痛、口内の強い金属味など）の複合的な観点から、非電離放射線（何らかの電磁放射線）が使用されたという仮説が立てられました。ただし、強度や正確な波長までは特定できていません。
研究の現状と課題
HEに関する調査は、OSAPプログラム（Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program、国防情報局/DIAの資金提供を受けたBASによる研究）の一部として行われました。
- OSAPプログラムは、本来5年間計画されていたにもかかわらず2年間で時期尚早に打ち切られたため、HEのような効果がどこまで及ぶかという疑問に答えるための十分なデータを得ることができませんでした。
- 研究者たちは、HEのような人間への長期的な影響（心理的影響や医学的影響を含む）を完全に究明するためには、OSAPのテンプレートを活用した5年以上の研究プログラムと、十分なリソースが必要であると強く主張しています。
- UFO現象の研究は、単に軍のパイロットが遭遇したUFOの性能パラメータといった狭い範囲に限定するのではなく、人間への長期的な影響を調査する側面の両方を網羅することで、全体像の歪みを避ける必要があります。
OSAP プログラム(AAWSAP)
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）という大きな 文脈において、これらの情報源は、OSAPプログラム（Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program）が米国政府によるUFO研究の中で史上最大の取り組みであり、HEやUFOとの関連が疑われる深刻な健康問題の調査に重要な役割を果たしたことを説明しています。
1. OSAPプログラムの定義、規模、および管轄
- 正式名称と管轄機関: OSAP（Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program）は、DIA（国防情報局）によって資金提供および監督されたBAS（Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Systems）による研究の頭字語です。DIAはペンタゴンにおけるCIAのような機関です。
- 規模と予算: OSAPは、2008年から2010年までの2年間で、DIAを通じて2,200万ドルの予算が割り当てられました。これは、50人のフルタイム従業員が昼夜を問わず働き、数百のサブコントラクターを抱える大規模な組織でした。知られている限り、OSAPは、プロジェクト・ブルーブックや後のATIP（Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program）よりもはるかに規模が大きく、米国政府によって資金提供されたこの種の取り組みの中で史上最大であったと信じられています。
- ATIPとの関係: ATIP（Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program）は、OSAPの「瓦礫」から成長した 後継プログラムであり、OSAPの後に続きました。
2. OSAPの主要な研究と活動範囲
OSAPは、そのプログラム期間中、DIAに104の個別の報告書（成果物）を提出しました。研究の焦点は、スキンウォーカー・ランチ（Skinwalker Ranch）だけではありませんでした。
- UFO技術と脅威分析: プログラムの本来の焦点は、UFOの技術、所有者、脅威、複製可能性といったUFOの技術的な側面にありました。
- 情報源の追跡: DIAとBASの全員が、OSAPが「証拠が導くところに従う」ことを理解しており、この方針の結果、研究は「非常に奇妙な領域」に踏み込みました。
- データウェアハウスの構築: OSAPの重要な成果の一つは、20万件以上のUFO事例を収めた巨大なデータベースの構築です。これには、プロジェクト・ブルーブックやNIDS（National Institute for Discovery Science）のプライベートファイル、ブラジルを含む他国政府の文書などが含まれていました。このデータベースにAIを適用してパターンを特定する計画がありましたが、OSAPが継続されなかったため、実現しませんでした。
- TIC TAC事件の調査: 2004年の有名なTIC TAC UFO事件は、OSAPプロジェクトでした。OSAPは、ANSYSマルチフィジックス解析や計算流体力学解析を用いて、この事件の広範な 工学的分析を含む140ページを超える報告書をDIAに提出しました。この分析情報の大部分は未公開です。
- ロシアのUFO文書の分析: OSAPは、ジョージ・ナップ氏がロシアから持ち帰ったソ連/ロシアのUFO文書を翻訳・分析しました。これにより、ソ連/ロシアが国家レベルでUFOデータを収集するための、米国よりも「はるかに深刻で広範な」プログラムを持っていたことが判明しました。
3. ヒッチハイカー効果（HE）および健康への影響に関する知見
OSAPプログラムは、UFOとの遭遇が人間に及ぼす深刻な長期的影響を調査する上で、重要な発見をしました。
- HEの再現性: スキンウォーカー・ランチを訪問した軍情報当局者のうち、OSAPプログラムの期間中に派遣された5人全員（100%）が、ジョージ・ナップ氏によると「何かを家に持ち帰ってしまった」というHEを経験しました。
- 深刻な医学的影響: OSAPプログラムが発見した最も特筆すべきことの一つは、一部の人々がUFOに遭遇した後に被る「強烈な医学的影響」でした。
- ある「センチネル事例」では、青いオーブが生物工学者の体内を通過した後、彼は顔のひどい日焼け、脱毛、視 力低下、頭痛、口内の強い金属味といった症状を呈し、その後、まれな種類の導管癌を発症しました。
- OSAPは契約したMD-PhD（医師科学者）を派遣し、血液サンプルの前後比較など、医療法医学的な調査を長期間にわたって実施しました。これにより、症状の原因として非電離放射線（電磁放射線の一種）が使用されたという仮説が立てられました。
- キッド・グリーン博士の報告書: 神経科学者であるキッド・グリーン博士は、OSAPのために、UFOに近接遭遇した人々の医学的影響を調査する報告書（38のDIRDのうちの1つ）を作成しました。この研究が、後にゲイリー・ノーラン博士らの研究に影響を与えました。
- 最終的な脅威評価: OSAPは、75年間にわたる調査を経ても、この現象の「意図」が不明であるため、UFO現象を「国家安全保障への脅威」であるとは結論付けませんでした。しかし、最終報告書では、UFO現象は「人間の健康への脅威」であると結論付けました。
4. OSAPプログラムの中止と課題
OSAPは、その大規模な取り組みにもかかわらず、早期に中止されたことが、HEなどの現象の全体像把握を妨げました。
- 早期打ち切り: OSAPは、当初の計画では5年間であったにもかかわらず、2年間で時期尚早に打ち切られました。
- 研究への影響: コルム・ケレハー氏（OSAP研究者）は、HEの伝播（伝染力$R_0$）などの疫学的分析を行うには「N（事例数）が小さすぎる」と指摘しており、もしOSAPが完全な5年間継続されていたら、HEがどこまで広がるかという問題について「多くの進展」があっただろうと述べています。
- 限定的な研究: OSAPは、利用可能なリソースの制約から、牛の切断（Cattle Mutilations）、リモート・ビューイング（ただし、パイロットプログラムは実施）、UFO誘拐の調査は行わないことを決定しました。
- リモート・ビューイングについては、DIAは本格的なプロジェクトを拒否したため、限定的なパイロットプログラムとして、ジョー・マクモニグル氏にスキンウォーカー・ランチの座標を与えて報告書を作成させたに留まります。
研究者らは、OSAPプログラムのテンプレートを活用した、十分なリソースと5年以上の期間を持つ新たな研究プログラムが必要であると強調しています。これは、UFOの性能パラメーターだけでなく、人間への長期的な心理的、医学的影響を調査することが、この謎を解明するために不可欠であると考えているためです。
UFO 現象の健康被害
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）のより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源は、UFO現象との遭遇が人間に及ぼす深刻で長期的な健康被害について、OSAPプログラム（Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program）を通じて得られた知見を主に説明しています。このプログラムは、UFO現象を国家安全保障の脅威ではなく、「人間の健康への脅威」であると結論付けました。
以下に、ソースが示しているUFO現象の健康被害に関する主要な点を説明します。
1. 深刻な医学的影響と疾患の発生
UFOに近接したり、長時間接触したりした人々には、単なるポルターガイストのような活動に留まらない、重度の医学的および健康上の影響（疾患など）が報告されています。
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「歩哨（Sentinel）事例」: OSAPが1年半から2年 近くかけて調査した事例の一つに、あるバイオテクノロジストが遭遇したケースがあります。彼は娘と共に車で帰宅中、青いオーブに遭遇しました。
- 遭遇状況: オーブの1つが彼の左肩を通り抜け、上部胸腔を通過し、右肩から抜け出て窓の外へ飛び去るという出来事がありました。この通過時に、彼は痛みはなかったものの、体内を大きな泡が移動しているような非常に奇妙で不快な感覚（軽いめまいのようなもの）を覚えました。
- 直後の症状: 24〜48時間以内に、この男性の顔の左側全体がひどく日焼けし、耳が腫れ始め、左目の視力が低下し始めました。
- 長期的な影響: 数週間以内に、頭の左側の脱毛が始まりました。さらに数か月後、彼はまれな種類の導管癌（Ductal Carcinoma）を発症しました（幸い転移性ではありませんでした）。
- 科学的追跡: 調査チームは、インシデント前に採取された血液サンプルと、インシデント後に採取された複数の血液サンプルにアクセスできたため、免疫システムパラメーターの劇的な変化や、好中球とリンパ球の比率の変動を時系列で医学法医学的に文書化することができました。
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黒い三角形UFOの事例: ジョージア州で、ある男性が巨大な黒い三角形のUFOに遭遇し、強力な懐中電灯を向けると、UFOから強く青い光線が直撃した事例があります。
- 症状: 彼は首と背中に強い熱を感じ、その翌日、口の中に強い金属味が残り、頭痛があり、首の後ろにひどい日焼けを負い、体調が優れない状態となりました。その後、頭の後ろの脱毛も始まりました。
- 疾患: 彼は数年間にわたり健康上の問題（激しい吐き気、身体に腫瘍が発生）を抱え、最終的にキャッスルマン病と診断されました。
2. ヒッチハイカー効果（HE）に伴う身体的・心理的影響
HE自体も、単なる心理現象ではなく、遭遇者の身体や家族、そして住環境に具体的な影響を及ぼします。
- 肉体的痕跡: HEを家に持ち帰ったとされるアックスルロッド氏の子供の一人は、夜間にオーブに囲まれた後、身体に物理的な痕跡を残しました。それは「赤く湿ったみみず腫れ（red, wet welts）」であり、まるで殴られた後のように見えました。彼は強いインフルエンザのような症状も発し、救急治療室に運ばれました。
- 心理的影響: 海軍パイロットがUFOに遭遇した後、長期的な心理的影響や意識への影響が生じたという断片的な情報があるため、長期的な研究が必要であると指摘されています。
- 長期的な危険性: UFOにあまりにも長く、または近距離で接触する人々は、生命を危険にさらす疾患や健康上の結果を被る可能性があります。
3. 健康被害の原因に関する仮説
OSAPプログラムは、UFOとの遭遇による医療症状の複合的な特徴に基づいて、その原因について仮説を立てました。
- 非電離放射線（Non-ionizing Radiation）の仮説: 日焼け、脱毛、頭痛、口内の強い金属味といった症状の組み合わせから、調査チームは何らかの電磁放射線、特に非電離放射線が使用されたという仮説を立てました。ただし、この仮説は将来の事例で検証される必要があり、正確な強度や波長は特定できていません。
4. 研究の推進と課題
これらの深刻な健康被害の発見は、UFO現象の研究の進め方について重要な教訓を与えています。
- 研究の必要性: キット・グリーン博士は、OSAPのためにUFOに近接遭遇した人々の医学的影響に関する報告書（DIRD）を執筆しました。この研究が、後にゲイリー・ノーラン博士などの研究に影響を与え、UFO遭遇者の長期的な健康被害を調査する必要性を高めました。
- OSAPの結論: OSAPは、UFO現象の「意図」が不明であるため、それが国家安全保障への脅威であるとは結論付けませんでしたが、「人間の健康への脅威」であると強く結論付けました。
- 研究範囲の拡大: 研究者らは、UFO研究を、軍のパイロットが遭遇したUFOの性能パラメータといった狭い範囲に限定するのではなく、人間への長期的な心理的・医学的影響を調査する側面を含めて研究範囲を広げる必要があると強く主張しています。これは、全体像が歪むのを防ぐためです。そのためには、OSAPが持っていたようなリソースと、数ヶ月または数年にわたる長期的な追跡調査を可能にする資金提供が必要であるとされています。
UFO の起源と意図
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）というより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源はUFO現象の起源（Origin）と意図（Intent）について、確固たる結論が出されていないこと、そしてそれが単一の現象ではない可能性が高いことを示唆しています。
1. UFO現象の起源（Origin）に関する見解
ソースによれば、OSAPプログラムの調査を含め、長年の研究を経ても、UFO現象の起源については「全く理解できていない」とされています。
複数の仮説の存在
ジョージ・ナップ氏は、UFOの起源について単一の答えはなく、複数の可能性があると考えています。
- 地球外生命体（ET）: 1980年代後半にナップ氏が調査を始めた際の支配的なパラダイム（定説）は、UFOは地球外生命体であるというものでした。一部の接触者や誘拐被害者は、UFOの存在が他の惑星から来たと主張するメッセージを受け取ったと報告しています。しかし、これは可能性の一つに過ぎないとされています。
- 次元間: UFOは次元間の存在かもしれません。
- タイムトラベラー: タイムトラベラーである可能性も指摘されています。
- クリプトテレストリアル/ウルトラテレストリアル: 「さらにエキゾチックな何か」、クリプトテレストリアル（Crypto-terrestrials）やウルトラテレストリアル（Ultra-terrestrials）といった、私たちが理解していない何かが関わっている可能性も示唆されています。
- 古代からの存在: ナップ氏は個人的な推測として、この現象は私たちより長くここに存在しており、「永遠に私たちと共にここに住んでいる」（地球外から来たのではなく、地球上に住んでいる）かもしれないと考えています。
従来のETパラダイムからの変化
ナップ氏は、調査を通じて従来のETパラダイム（定説）は変化したと述べています。
- 故ジャック・ヴァレ氏は、UFOの謎の最終的な答えが「単に他の惑星からの訪問者」であった場合、「本当にがっかりする」と述べていました。
- UFO現象で実証された技術は、時空を制御し、重力や時間、空間を私たちが理解できない方法で操作しているように見えるため、地球外生命体であると同時に次元間やタイムトラベラーである可能性もある、と指摘されています。
2. UFO現象の意図（Intent）に関する見解
OSAPプログラムは、75年間にわたる調査を経ても、この現象の意図や目的（agenda）については全く見当がつかないと結論付けています。
「人間の健康への脅威」
意図が不明であるため、OSAPの最終報告書は、UFO現象を「国家安全保障への脅威」であるとは結論付けませんでしたが、UFO現象が人間に及ぼす深刻な健康被害（疾病など）を調査した結果、これは「人間の健康への脅威」であると結論付けました。
複雑な意図と欺瞞の可能性
ナップ氏やケレハー氏は、この現象の意図は単一ではなく、複雑であり、欺瞞（Deception）が関わっている可能性を強調しています。
- 単一の知性ではない: この現象が一つの知性なのか、あるいは複数の知性（それぞれ異なるアジェンダを持つ）なのかすら不明であるとされています。
- 嘘をつく存在: 一部の知性（存在）は、接触者や誘拐被害者にメッセージを伝達しますが、彼らは「嘘をつく」、「欺く」、「誤解させる」傾向があるため、そのメッセージを信用することはできないとされています。彼らは異なる姿をとる（シェイプシフターである）可能性も示唆されています。
- 無関心: ある知性は、私たちに全く無関心であるように見え、私たちに見られることを気にしないようです。
- ポジティブな側面: 一方で、まれな事例として、彼らが人類の発展や健康に関心を示し、病気を治したり、遭遇者にポジティブな感情（大きな喜び）をもたらしたという報告もあります。しかし、OSAPが調査した大多数のケースは、このような良性のサブセットではありませんでした。
欺瞞の二重構造
コルム・ケレハー氏は、UFO現象に関するデータには「二重の欺瞞の層」があることを指摘しています。
- 政府による欺瞞: 米国政府や軍が、自らの高度な秘密プログラム（特殊アクセスプログラム）を隠蔽するために、UFO現象を模倣して国民を欺いている側面。
- 現象による欺瞞: UFO現象側が、米軍の特殊アクセスプログラムや技術を模倣しているように見える側面。巨大な黒い三角形UFOの出現などはその一例であり、なぜ軍のトップシークレット技術が照明を付けて低空で人口密集地を飛行するのか（国家安全保障パラメーターの甚だしい違反である）という疑問が示されています。
このような欺瞞の層が存在するため、科学的手法を適用して現象の真の起源と意図を解明することが非常に困難になっています。
SWR でのクリプト生物
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）のより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源は、スキンウォーカー・ランチ（SWR）で遭遇されたクリプトタイプの生物（Crypto-type beings）について、その性質、具体的な目撃例、そしてそれらがヒッチハイカー効果の一部として自宅に「持ち帰られる」現象に関連していることを説明しています。
1. SWRにおけるクリプト生物の定義と種類
クリプト生物とは、UFO現象、ポルターガイスト活動、HEと共にSWRで目撃された自然界には存在しない異常な生物を指します。
- 一般的なクリプト生物の報告:
- SWRでは、オーブ、飛行物体、そしてクリプトタイプの生物による訪問が報告されています。
- ジョージ・ナップ氏は、SWRで目撃されたクリプト生物には「ビッグフット（Bigfoot）」など世界中で見られる種類（ドッグマン、ウルフマンなどのワー・クリーチャー）が含まれる一方で、自然界には存在しない、風変わりで滑稽なものまで含まれると述べています。
- ナップ氏は、SWRではそれら の生物の混合が見られたと述べています。
2. 具体的な目撃事例
情報源は、SWRの訪問者や住人が遭遇した具体的なクリプト生物の事例を詳述しています。
A. 立ち上がるオオカミのような生物（アックスルロッド氏の事例）
ヒッチハイカー効果の「ポスターチャイルド」となったアックスルロッド氏（仮名）の自宅で、彼の妻と子供たちが遭遇した事例です。
- 目撃状況: アックスルロッド氏の妻は、庭で2本の足で立っているオオカミのような生物を目撃しました。その生物は、前足（paws）をこのように組んで木にもたれかかり、妻をじっと見つめ返していました。
- 家族への拡散: 彼女が誰にも話さなかった数日後、今度は子供たちがその生物を目撃しました。彼らは、その生物が2本の足で走り、通りを駆け下り、葉を蹴り上げていたのを見ました。
- 物理的痕跡: この生 物は、妻がもたれかかっているのを見た正確な木に爪痕を残していました。
B. ディノビーバー（Dino Beaver）
OSAPプログラムの一環としてSWRを訪れた情報当局者とコルム・ケレハー氏が目撃した生物です。
- 遭遇状況: ケレハー氏と女性情報当局者（ジュリエット・ウィット）は、SWRのホームステッド2の近くの牧草地で背中合わせに座って360度を監視していました。ケレハー氏の約9メートル（30フィート）前方の樹木限界線に沿って、約45～68kg（100～150ポンド）の生物が静かに移動しているのを目撃しました。
- 外見: その生物は、背骨から生じたブロックのようなものを持っていました。ケレハー氏は、最も近い類似点として、非常に小さなバージョンのステゴサウルスを挙げました。それは平らな尾を持ち、地面から低く、非常に静かに移動するずんぐりした生物でした。
- 超常現象的要素: この生物が移動している間、そのエリアには「沈黙の円錐（cone of silence）」が降りたようでした。コオロギなどの環境音もすべて止まり、絶対的な静寂の中で移動していました。
- その後の活動: 生物は廃墟となったホームステッド2の角を曲がって消えました。ケレハー氏とウィット氏がすぐに追いかけましたが、その生物の痕跡は全く見つかりませんでした。
- HEとの関連: この遭遇の後、この女性情報当局者（ジュリエット・ウィット）が自宅に戻ると、すぐにポルターガイストのような活動が爆発的に発生しました。
3. UFO現象とHEとの関連
SWRで遭遇されたクリプト生物は、UFO現象およびHEのより大きなパターンの一部と見なされています。
- ヒッチハイカー効果の媒介: クリーチャーとの遭遇（例：ディノビーバー）は、その後の自宅での超常現象的活動（HE）の直接的な引き金となっています。
- 現象の意図: UFO現象の意図が不明であるように、これらの生物がなぜ出現するのか、そしてなぜ遭遇した人々にHEを媒介するのかは不明です。
- 物理的影響: HEは単なる「頭の中の現象」ではなく、クリプト生物の事例に見られるように、爪痕や、オーブに囲まれた子供の身体に残った物理的なみみず腫れなど、環境や身体に物理的な影響を及ぼすことが文書化されています。
その他の関連トピック
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）のより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源は、UFO研究を取り巻くさまざまなその他の関連トピック、特に研究の課題、政府の関与、そして現象の性質そのものについて深く掘り下げています。
1. UFO研究の課題と将来の方向性
情報源は、UFO現象の解明を妨げている多くの課題を指摘し、今後の研究のあり方について提案しています。
A. データとリソースの不足
- OSAPの早期打ち切り：OSAPプログラムは、本来5年間の計画であったにもかかわらず、わずか2年間で時期尚早に打ち切られました。これにより、HEの伝播範囲に関する疫学分析など、多くの疑問に答えるための十分なデータ（N、事例数）を得ることができませんでした。
- データの非公開性：BASがDIA（国防情報局）に提出した104の報告書（写真やチャートを含む）を含むOSAPの情報とデータベースの大部分は、いまだに公開されていません。ジョージ・ナップ氏は、これらの情報は最終的に公開されるべきだと考えています。
- 長期研究の必要性：UFO遭遇の人間への長期的な影響（心理的、医学的影響）を完全に解明するためには、OSAPが実施したような医療法医学的な追跡調査を可能にする数ヶ月または数年間にわたるリソースと資金提供が必要です。これは、週末の調査員による「週末の戦士モデル」では不十分です。
B. 研究範囲の拡大
- 狭い焦点への批判：研究者たちは、UFO現象の調査を、軍のパイロットが遭遇したUFOの性能パラメーター（5つの観測可能要素や6つの観測可能要素）とい う狭い範囲に限定すべきではないと強く主張しています。
- 全体像の把握：現象の全体像を理解するためには、軍事的な遭遇だけでなく、HE、心理的影響、医学的影響といった人間への長期的影響を含む、エビデンスが導く先（「証拠が導くところに従う」）へ研究範囲を広げる必要があります。そうしないと、「非常に歪んだデータセット」を見ることになります。
- 科学界への呼びかけ：この現象の解明には、国立科学財団（NSF）や国立衛生研究所（NIH）から資金提供を受け、UFOの性能に関連する物理学や長期的な影響（心理的、医学的、社会学的）に焦点を当てた10年間のプログラムが必要です。
2. 政府と軍事的な欺瞞および関与
情報源は、UFO現象をめぐる曖昧さ（ambiguity）と、軍や政府による情報操作の可能性を強調しています。
- 二重の欺瞞の層：UFO現象には2つのレベルの欺瞞が存在します。
- 政府による欺瞞：米国政府や軍は、自らの高度な秘密プログラム（特殊アクセスプログラム）を隠蔽するために、UFO現象を模倣し、国民を欺いてきました。例として、1980年代 にニューメキシコ州北部で高度な航空機が墜落した際、軍がUFOが関与しているという考えを増幅させて隠蔽した事例が挙げられます。
- 現象による欺瞞：UFO現象の側が、米軍の特殊アクセスプログラム（SAP）や技術を模倣しているように見える側面もあります。
- 黒い三角形UFOの謎：巨大な黒い三角形のUFOは、多くの場所で目撃され、米軍のSAPと関連付けられがちです。しかし、目撃事例の中には、トップシークレットの技術であればあり得ない、低空を明るい照明をつけて人口密集地を飛行しているものがあり、これは「国家安全保障パラメーターの甚だしい違反」であると指摘されています。
- 黒いヘリコプターの役割：UFO目撃後に現れる黒いヘリコプターは、現象の一部が別の形（シェイプシフター）をとっている場合と、現象を監視している政府の工作員の両方である可能性があります。モンタナ州のマルムストローム空軍基地周辺で、司令官でさえ起源を特定できなかった数十件の黒いヘリコプターの目撃事例が報告されています。
3. その他の異常現象との関連
OSAPはUFO現象に焦点を当てていましたが、HEを追跡する中で、他の異常現象についても触れられ ています。
- 牛の切断（Cattle Mutilations）：OSAPはリソースの制約から牛の切断の調査を決定的に行いませんでしたが、NIDS（National Institute for Discovery Science）時代には広範な法医学的調査が行われました。
- 二種類の切断者：牛の切断には2つのレベルの行為者がいるという仮説が立てられました。一つは、臓器を外科的精度で切除し、血液や医療器具の痕跡を残さない古典的な謎の切断者（現象側）。もう一つは、この超常的な謎の傘の下で、感染症のモニタリングなどのための人間によるサンプリング行為を行っている者（政府や小規模な請負業者など）です。後者は、鎮静剤や医療器具の痕跡を残していました。
- SWRでの異常な事例：SWRでは、雪の上に足跡が残されているにもかかわらず牛が消えたり、あるいは「ディマテリアル化された」牛が小さな物置小屋に詰め込まれていた、短時間で肉が完全に除去された子牛の事例など、人為的な説明をはるかに超える現象が報告されています。
- 遠隔透視（Remote Viewing: RV）：DIAは本格的なRV研究を拒否しましたが、OSAPはパイロットプログラムとして、伝説的なRV実行者であるジョー・マクモニグル氏にSWRの座標を与え、報告書を作成させました。また、以前のNIDSの取り組みでは、RVによってSWRの軍事監視の証拠や地下施設の存在が示唆されましたが、物理的な検証はされていません。
4. 意識と現象の関係
UFO現象とHEのより深遠な側面として、現象と人間の意識との関係が議論されています。
- 観察者の役割：現象が観察者の意識によって共同創造されている可能性や、現象が意識的な観察者のために出現しているのかという疑問が提起されました。
- 意識優位説：コルム・ケレハー氏は、一部の学者が主張する「意識が第一である（Consciousness is prime）」という考え方（ベルナルド・カストルップ、ドナルド・ホフマンら）に言及しています。この考え方では、人間の知覚は航空機のダッシュボードのようなものであり、UFO現象は「ダッシュボードの外側」に存在するかもしれません。
- 心理的影響：UFO遭遇は、パイロットを含む人々に長期的な心理的影響や意識への影響を与える可能性があり、これを研究のスコープに含めることが重要だとされています。
- CE5プロトコル：スティーブン・グリア氏が提唱するCE5プロトコル（UFOを呼び出すための瞑想的手法）についても言及されました。ナップ氏は試す価値があるとしつつ、ケレハー氏はアジェンダが不明な現象を「呼 び出す」ことには注意が必要であると警告しています。
事例分析
UFO現象とヒッチハイカー効果（HE）のより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源は、UFO研究を取り巻くさまざまなその他の関連トピック、特に研究の課題、政府の関与、そして現象の性質そのものについて深く掘り下げています。
1. UFO研究の課題と将来の方向性
情報源は、UFO現象の解明を妨げている多くの課題を指摘し、今後の研究のあり方について提案しています。
A. データとリソースの不足
- OSAPの早期打ち切り：OSAPプログラムは、本来5年間の計画であったにもかかわらず、わずか2年間で時期尚早に打ち切られました。これにより、HEの伝播範囲に関する疫学分析など、多くの疑問に答えるための十分なデータ（N、事例数）を得ることができませんでした。
- データの非公開性：BASがDIA（国防情報局）に提出した104の報告書（写真やチャートを含む）を含むOSAPの情報とデータベースの大部分は、いまだに公開されていません。ジョージ・ナップ氏は、これらの情報は最終的に公開されるべきだと考えています。
- 長期研究の必要性：UFO遭遇の人間への長期的な影響（心理的、医学的影響）を完全に解明するためには、OSAPが実施したような医療法医学的な追跡調査を可能にする数ヶ月または数年間にわたるリソースと資金提供が必要です。これは、週末の調査員による「週末の戦士モデル」では不十分です。
B. 研究範囲の拡大
- 狭い焦点への批判：研究者たちは、UFO現象の調査を、軍のパイロットが遭遇したUFOの性能パラメーター（5つの観測可能要素や6つの観測可能要素）という狭い範囲に限定すべきではないと強く主張しています。
- 全体像の把握：現象の全体像を理解するためには、軍事的な遭遇だけでなく、HE、心理的影響、医学的影響といった人間への長期的影響を含む、エビデンスが導く先（「証拠が導くところに従う」）へ研究範囲を広げる必要があります。そうしないと、「非常に歪んだデータセット」を見ることになります。
- 科学界への呼びかけ：この現象の解明には、国立科学財団（NSF）や国立衛生研究所（NIH）から資金提供を受け、UFOの性能に関連する物理学や長期的な影響（心理的、医学的、社会学的）に焦点を当てた10年間のプログラムが必要です。
2. 政府と軍事的な欺瞞および関与
情報源は、UFO現象をめぐる曖昧さ（ambiguity）と、軍や政府による情報操作の可能性を強調しています。
- 二重の欺瞞の層：UFO現象には2つのレベルの欺瞞が存在します。
- 政府による欺瞞：米国政府や軍は、自らの高度な秘密プログラム（特殊アクセスプログラム）を隠蔽するために、UFO現象 を模倣し、国民を欺いてきました。例として、1980年代にニューメキシコ州北部で高度な航空機が墜落した際、軍がUFOが関与しているという考えを増幅させて隠蔽した事例が挙げられます。
- 現象による欺瞞：UFO現象の側が、米軍の特殊アクセスプログラム（SAP）や技術を模倣しているように見える側面もあります。
- 黒い三角形UFOの謎：巨大な黒い三角形のUFOは、多くの場所で目撃され、米軍のSAPと関連付けられがちです。しかし、目撃事例の中には、トップシークレットの技術であればあり得ない、低空を明るい照明をつけて人口密集地を飛行しているものがあり、これは「国家安全保障パラメーターの甚だしい違反」であると指摘されています。
- 黒いヘリコプターの役割：UFO目撃後に現れる黒いヘリコプターは、現象の一部が別の形（シェイプシフター）をとっている場合と、現象を監視している政府の工作員の両方である可能性があります。モンタナ州のマルムストローム空軍基地周辺で、司令官でさえ起源を特定できなかった数十件の黒いヘリコプターの目撃事例が報告されています。
3. その他の異常現象との関連
OSAPはUFO現象に 焦点を当てていましたが、HEを追跡する中で、他の異常現象についても触れられています。
- 牛の切断（Cattle Mutilations）：OSAPはリソースの制約から牛の切断の調査を決定的に行いませんでしたが、NIDS（National Institute for Discovery Science）時代には広範な法医学的調査が行われました。
- 二種類の切断者：牛の切断には2つのレベルの行為者がいるという仮説が立てられました。一つは、臓器を外科的精度で切除し、血液や医療器具の痕跡を残さない古典的な謎の切断者（現象側）。もう一つは、この超常的な謎の傘の下で、感染症のモニタリングなどのための人間によるサンプリング行為を行っている者（政府や小規模な請負業者など）です。後者は、鎮静剤や医療器具の痕跡を残していました。
- SWRでの異常な事例：SWRでは、雪の上に足跡が残されているにもかかわらず牛が消えたり、あるいは「ディマテリアル化された」牛が小さな物置小屋に詰め込まれていた、短時間で肉が完全に除去された子牛の事例など、人為的な説明をはるかに超える現象が報告されています。
- 遠隔透視（Remote Viewing: RV）：DIAは本格的なRV研究を拒否しましたが、OSAPはパイロットプログラムとして、伝説的なRV実行者であるジョー・マクモニグル氏にSWRの座標を与え、報告書を作成させました。また、以前のNIDSの取り組みでは、RVによってSWRの軍事監視の証拠や地下施設の存在が示唆されましたが、物理的な検証はされていません。
4. 意識と現象の関係
UFO現象とHEのより深遠な側面として、現象と人間の意識との関係が議論されています。
- 観察者の役割：現象が観察者の意識によって共同創造されている可能性や、現象が意識的な観察者のために出現しているのかという疑問が提起されました。
- 意識優位説：コルム・ケレハー氏は、一部の学者が主張する「意識が第一である（Consciousness is prime）」という考え方（ベルナルド・カストルップ、ドナルド・ホフマンら）に言及しています。この考え方では、人間の知覚は航空機のダッシュボードのようなものであり、UFO現象は「ダッシュボードの外側」に存在するかもしれません。
- 心理的影響：UFO遭遇は、パイロットを含む人々に長期的な心理的影響や意識への影響を与える可能性があり、これを研究のスコープに含めることが重要だとされています。
- CE5プロトコル：スティーブン・グリア氏が提唱するCE5プロトコル（UFOを呼び出すための瞑想的手法）についても言及されました。ナップ氏は試す価値があるとしつつ、ケレハー氏はアジェンダが不明な現象を「呼び出す」ことには注意が必要であると警告しています。
情報源
動画(2:15:15) Knapp Λ Kelleher: Skinwalker Ranch & Hitchhiker Effect
Feb 4, 2022
Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal New revelations about the on-goings at Skinwalker and UFOs. Skinwalkers At The Pentagon book (affiliate)
文字起こし（話者識別）
展開
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Today's guests are George Knapp and Colm Kelleher on the topic of UFOs, the Hitchhiker Effect, and their recent book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, linked in the description. In fact, any time a book, an article, a video is referenced in the Toe podcast, I've most likely placed a link to it in the description. George Knapp is an investigative journalist, a news anchor, a talk radio host(Curt Jaimungal), who has so many awards that I have to read them verbatim, and this still isn't an exhaustive list. He's been recognized with the Edward R. Murrow Awards, Peabody Awards, and dozens of Pacific Southwest Regional Emmy Awards. Colm Kelleher is a biochemist with more than 15 years of research in cell and molecular biology. (00:00:40)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : For the past eight years, Colm has been using forensic science methodologies to investigate scientific anomalies associated with the phenomenon. Click on the timestamp in the description if you'd like to skip this intro. My name is Kurt Jaimungal. I'm a Torontonian filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics dedicated to the explication of the variegated terrain of theories of everything, from a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as analyzing consciousness and seeing its potential connection to fundamental reality, whatever that is. (00:01:10)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Essentially, this channel is dedicated to exploring the underrived nature of reality, the constitutional laws that govern it, provided those laws exist at all and are even knowable to us. If you enjoy witnessing and engaging with others on the topics of psychology, consciousness, physics, etc., the channel's themes, then do consider going to the Discord and the Subreddit, which are linked in the description. There's also a link to the Patreon, that is patreon.com slash kurtjaimungal, if you'd like to support this podcast, as the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I'm able to have podcasts of this quality and this depth, given that I can do this now full-time, thanks to both the patrons and the sponsors' support. (00:01:48)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Speaking of sponsors, there are two. The first sponsor is Brilliant. During the winter break, I decided to brush up on some of the fundamentals of physics, particularly with regard to information theory, as I'd like to interview Chiara Marleto on constructor theory, which is heavily based in information theory. Now, information theory is predicated on entropy, at least there's a fundamental formula for entropy. So I ended up taking the Brilliant course. I challenged myself to do one lesson per day, and I took the courses Random Variable Distributions and Knowledge Uncertainty. What I loved is that despite knowing the formula for entropy, which is essentially hammered into you as an undergraduate, it seems like it comes down from the sky arbitrarily. (00:02:25)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : And with Brilliant, for the first time, I was able to see how the formula for entropy, which you're seeing right now, is actually extremely natural, and it'd be strange to define it in any other manner. There are plenty of courses, and you can even learn group theory, which is what's being referenced when you hear that the standard model is predicated on U1 x SU2 x SU3. Those are Lie groups, continuous Lie groups. (00:02:45)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Visit brilliant.org slash toetoe to get 20% off an annual subscription, and I recommend that you don't stop before four lessons. I think you'll be greatly surprised at the ease at which you can now comprehend subjects you previously had a difficult time grokking. The second sponsor is Algo. Now, Algo is an end-to-end supply chain optimization software company with software that helps business users optimize sales and operations, planning to avoid stockouts, reduce return and inventory write-downs while reducing inventory investment. It's a supply chain AI that drives smart ROI, headed by Amjad Hussain, who's been a huge supporter of this podcast since near its inception. (00:03:23)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : In fact, Amjad has his own podcast on AI and consciousness and business growth, and if you'd like to support the Toe podcast, then visit the link in the description to see Amjad's podcast, because subscribing to him, or at least visiting, supports the Toe podcast indirectly. Thank you and enjoy. I'm also not feeling terribly well, so if I am not at my tip-top shape, please forgive me. Okay, it seems like we're live. (00:03:48)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Great, great, great. Okay, welcome, Colm. Welcome, George. Thank you so much for being here. Man, okay, this is such a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this, and many, many, many people have been looking forward to this. So we'll get straight to the questions. Forget about intros. I'll edit in an intro later. George, this one's directed to you. Why don't you explain to the people who are unacquainted what the hitchhiker effect is? (00:04:11)
[George Knapp] : We don't exactly know, and I think a hitchhiker effect should probably be plural, not just a singular form of the term, because there are many effects. The Bass team first noticed it in a correlation of things that happened to people who visited Skinwalker Ranch. In particular, there were at least five, maybe six, intelligence officials who during the OSAP program, overseen and funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency, these intelligence officials visited Skinwalker Ranch, had an encounter with something unusual, and then took something home with them. (00:04:44)
[George Knapp] : We don't know exactly how it works. We don't know why it happens, but it's happened over and over again. It not only happened to those people during the OSAP Bass period, but it happened to people who had visited the ranch during the NIDS era, and even before that, where people would go to this property, encounter unusual phenomena, UFOs, whatever, and then they would go home, and they were visited at their home by orbs, by craft, by crypto-type beings, poltergeist-type activity broke out in their homes. (00:05:15)
[George Knapp] : In one particular instance that we describe in the book, there were these very seasoned intelligence officials who as part of the Bass OSAP program, went to the ranch to check it out for themselves. They're walking during the in the middle homestead at night, it's cold, and suddenly gets much colder. They hit a cold spot where it goes, the temperature drops dramatically in a matter of seconds, and they were sort of on high alert. In fact, these guys were on high alert the whole time they were on the ranch, because they'd read and heard about it. (00:05:45)
[George Knapp] : And they encountered some sort of an intelligence that had a sort of a menacing presence. It sort of froze them in their tracks. They backed off, and later when they went home, they had an eruption of paranormal activity in their homes. It is, and generally the way it works is, it spreads to their family members. The family members, wives, children, see these things ahead of time. The one character in our book, Axelrod, not his real name, we had to change that at the direction of the Pentagon when we submitted the manuscript. He had this explosion of activity in his home that was seen by his wife. (00:06:20)
[George Knapp] : She saw this standing on two legs, a wolf creature, a wolf standing in her yard, its paws crossed like this, leaning on a tree, staring back at her. A couple of days later, she didn't tell anybody about it. A couple of days later, her kids see it. They scream, this thing runs off down the street. They can see it's running on two legs, it's kicking up leaves, and they didn't know what the hell to think about it. But there were other things that happened in the home. (00:06:48)
[George Knapp] : Beings, shadowy figures seen in the home, things moving around on their own, their pet had been moved, they found their dog up on the roof one day, all kinds of trickster-type activity. And then it spread from the kids to their friends in the neighborhood. That has happened a bunch of times. It happened, there was a female agent, who we detail in the book, a very seasoned, battle-hardened professional, who encountered something with Callum, and he can tell you about it. They encountered some kind of a creature, a crypto creature that people have dubbed the Dino Beaver, again, in the middle homestead. (00:07:20)
[George Knapp] : This woman, when she goes back home, it's an immediate explosion of what you could call poltergeist-type activity. Not saying it is poltergeist, it's just similar to that kind of activity that's been reported over the decades by poltergeist researchers in her home. A wine bottle flies across the room, from one side of the room, smashes on the wall on the other side. There are beings that she sees at the side of her bed, things moving around in her home. It was so dramatic that her roommate, who was her fiancé, moved out, ended that relationship. (00:07:51)
[George Knapp] : This activity has continued for years. Callum will tell you it's happened to pretty much all of us who've spent a lot of time on the ranch, including me. I've never seen anything on Skinwalker Ranch, but my wife has experienced things at my home. Callum's wife has experienced things in their home. Bob Bigelow's wife experienced things in their home. Some of it is benign and interesting, and some of it is downright scary. We don't know why it happens, but Callum, with his biology background, can explain better about sort of the effect of how it spreads. (00:08:21)
[George Knapp] : It's like a virus. (00:08:22)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : You mentioned it's benign and sometimes deleterious. Is any of it positive? (00:08:26)
[George Knapp] : Not that I know of. Maybe Callum has heard about that. I mean, it's positive in the sense of, wow, I got to see something really strange there. It's kind of thrilling. My wife, the first time something happened at our home, and I tried to make this happen for a long time before I knew about the hitchhiker effect. I would bring things home from Skinwalker Ranch to my house, try to engage whatever it was, bits of rocks and scrap and things taken from the homesteads, little tiny bits and pieces, to try to get it going. And finally, it happened, and it wasn't pleasant. (00:08:57)
[George Knapp] : My wife saw these blue orbs floating over our house at night. She called me to come up and see them. By the time I got there, they were gone. And then there was an experience in our bedroom where this thing came in. I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on that, but it was a very frightening experience for her, unpleasant, and she didn't want it to happen again. (00:09:16)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, you know, the interesting thing about the hitchhiker effect is that it is very, very reproducible. You know, George, George said that, you know, back in the, even in the 90s, the NIDS people were experiencing this effect. But in terms of reproducibility, we know that going into between the NIDS era, which ended really in 2003, and the BAS era, the OSOP era, which happened really beginning in 2008, 2009, multiple security officers were deployed on the Skinwalker Ranch property. A lot of those people, we've personally interviewed about a dozen of them, and a lot of those people have brought, quote-unquote, brought something home. (00:10:04)
[Colm Kelleher] : Same kind of thing, poltergeist activity in the house. Sometimes they see orbs in the house. And then getting into the OSOP era, where everything seemed to really escalate. And these five out of five, 100% of the military intelligence people who were deployed at the request of the Defense Intelligence Agency onto Skinwalker Ranch did, as George said, bring something home with them. And, you know, even after Robert Bigelow sold Skinwalker Ranch, we have a new era of Brandon Fugel, the property developer from Utah, purchased the ranch. He installed a team on the property. (00:10:48)
[Colm Kelleher] : And lo and behold, we have another set of instances of the hitchhiker effect. And remember, the people who went on Skinwalker Ranch in 2016 were very, very skeptical. And they were saying, this is all, you know, this is not absolutely, you know, this is all fantasy. And then stuff started erupting in their homes. They brought something home with them and multiple instances. So in terms of reproducibility, the hitchhiker effect has continuously affected people that we know of for about 25 years. It may be longer on Skinwalker Ranch. And the second point I wanted to make was that it is not only Skinwalker Ranch. It is not sort of only happening on Skinwalker Ranch, but a lot of UFO activity does seem to give rise to the Skinwalker or the hitchhiker effect. (00:11:47)
[Colm Kelleher] : For people who have never been on Skinwalker Ranch and just interact with the UFO phenomenon, they themselves, in some cases, I'm not saying in all cases, but in some cases, and mostly where we have the luxury of being able to study these people over many months or many years, a lot of these people, you know, report elements of the hitchhiker effect. You know, it's kind of ironic, but going all the way back to 1947, Kenneth Arnold, when he saw those nine objects in the sky over the Cascade Mountains in June of 1947. It's interesting, long after he died, his daughter went on a radio show. (00:12:35)
[Colm Kelleher] : She was talking about writing a book about his life, but she started talking about seeing orbs in the Arnold home. They had experienced various effects. Even Kenneth Arnold himself in his book talks about, you know, some really weird happenings that were happening after the June 24th, 1947. I'm not unambiguously tying what happened to Kenneth Arnold to some form of the hitchhiker effect, but I'm saying that this effect is not just a Skinwalker Ranch specific effect. It happens on a much broader scale. (00:13:14)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : You've been researching in this area for decades, or at least plenty and plenty of years. What piece of evidence do you find most striking, most remarkable, for whatever reason? So one could be because it's incontrovertible evidence toward the existence of X or Y, or it led to some new research area. (00:13:32)
[Colm Kelleher] : I think one of the most remarkable things that we found during the OSAP program, and again, the OSAP program was a 24-month program that started in 2008 and ended in 2010. But you know, for the first time, we had a large team. We had about 50 people who were employed full-time at OSAP. And then we had $22 million allocated through the Defense Intelligence Agency for a two-year period. So it's very rare in the UFO field to have the luxury of resources and being able to study people over long periods of time after they've encountered UFOs. So I guess one of the most remarkable sort of discoveries that we made during the OSAP program was the intense medical effects that some of these UFO cases cause in some people. (00:14:38)
[Colm Kelleher] : I'll give you an example. One of the Sentinel cases that we actually investigated over about a year actually, and it went into almost a two-year investigation, was that this biotechnologist and his daughter were driving towards Bend, Oregon in their vehicle on their way home. And the daughter notices three small UFOs, bluish color, that were darting around in the field beside them. Once she noticed them, they immediately made a beeline for the vehicle as they were driving. And one of them went right across the windshield. (00:15:18)
[Colm Kelleher] : One of them came into the car and went right across, in their field of view, went right across the windshield inside the vehicle. But the third one actually went through the left shoulder of this biotechnologist, went through the upper thoracic cavity, and then emerged from the right shoulder and then shot out through the window right in front of the daughter. I mean, this was a terrifying episode for the daughter, especially as she was witnessing all of this. But, you know, within, I would say, 24 to 48 hours, this guy woke up the following day with the left side of his face was all sunburned, his ear had started swelling, his eye, he was started losing the sight in his left eye. (00:16:09)
[Colm Kelleher] : Within a week or a couple of weeks, he started losing his hair on the left side of his head. And, you know, luckily we had on contract MD-PhD, a couple of MD-PhDs, really sort of as people who could get deep into medical investigations and look at medical injuries. So we deployed one of these people, you know, on this case. And he followed this guy over many, many months. But it turned out that a few months after this event had happened, he came down with a rare form of ductal carcinoma that luckily was not metastatic. (00:16:53)
[Colm Kelleher] : So it did not metastasize. And over a two-year period went through a lot of health issues. But in terms of being able to document all of that, we were very, very fortunate that we had access to blood samples taken from this guy before the incident. And then there were multiple blood samples taken after the incident. So we were able to piece together a medical forensic sort of picture of what had happened before and after this incident. And we could document, you know, rises and falls of various immune system parameters within this guy. (00:17:36)
[Colm Kelleher] : We saw that there were dramatic changes in neutrophil-lymphocyte ratios over time. And, you know, this was, from an OSOP UFO investigation point of view, we think this was one of the sentinel cases because we had resources and we were able to... we had the luxury of following this guy over a year and a half to two years after the incident. And as I said, we had blood samples taken before the incident. So we were actually able to postulate about cause and effect and the sort of the dramatic increase in adverse health symptoms that this guy had suffered. (00:18:18)
[Colm Kelleher] : We were able to say with reasonable confidence that he suffered pretty well all of those after the close encounter with this small blue orb. So that was a case. And we had several other cases that BAS OSOP encountered that sort of, you know, looked at the medical injury aspect. And that was one of the things that really surprised me during the NIDS era. We did not encounter too many of those cases. You know, we were all the time databasing cases from, you know, we had about 1,800 separate UFO investigations under our belt by the time the NIDS database went on ice, which was about 2003. But we never saw in terms of boots on the ground investigations of UFO effects. (00:19:14)
[Colm Kelleher] : We never saw the sort of level of medical injury that we saw sort of, you know, up close and personal with a few of these cases. So I guess that's one of the things that really surprised me from the OSOP series of investigations. (00:19:30)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Did that person feel any burning sensation or any sensation at all when the orb went through him? (00:19:35)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, he actually did feel a sort of really weird sort of uncomfortable. It wasn't painful or anything. He felt sort of discombobulated and sort of out of sorts as this thing was traveling through his body was almost like a large, it felt like a very, very large bubble that was moving through his body. He actually did feel the movement, but he didn't feel any pain or he didn't feel any discomfort. He just felt, I would say it was sort of a version of mild vertigo. (00:20:09)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay, George, when we first connected, you mentioned to me that there's plenty of meat on the bone, so to speak, in the book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, which the link is in the description for those who would like to check that out. Now, what are you referring to? What specifically are you referring to that you feel like people in the media, either on podcasts, etc, haven't picked up on? And why do you think it's so important? (00:20:32)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Those pieces of information? This question also comes from Dan from that UFO podcast. (00:20:37)
[George Knapp] : Yeah, no, well, there, there are a lot of ways I can answer that. I'll give you a sort of some bullet points. One is the documenting the difference between OSAP and ATIP. We're all glad that ATIP, that story hit the New York Times in December 2017. But there were multiple errors of fact in that story that they sort of conflated OSAP with ATIP. OSAP is the program that got $22 million. OSAP was authorized and overseen by the Defense Intelligence Agency. It was not a small operation, as Colum said, it had 50 full-time employees working around the clock, and then hundreds of subcontractors. (00:21:12)
[George Knapp] : It was huge. As far as we know, we believe there are other UFO programs, but as far as we know, it was the largest such endeavor ever funded by the US government, bigger than Project Blue Book, bigger than ATIP by many magnitudes. And I don't think people get how just how big it was. ATIP grew out of OSAP, not the other way around. There were two distinct efforts, and this was huge. Number two is the database. (00:21:37)
[George Knapp] : The database that was created by these guys is enormous. It's more than 200,000 different UFO cases. It incorporates not only Project Blue Book and US government files, but also private files compiled by NIDS, the files of other governments, including Brazil, documents, reports, case files, things of that sort. It was enormous. I don't think there's anything like it anywhere else in the world. And had OSAP been allowed to continue, one of the plans was, as envisioned by Jacques Vallée, who created this database or data warehouse, was to put AI on top of it as a way to filter and collate different cases to look for patterns. If that had been allowed to continue, if OSAP had been allowed to continue, we'd be way further down the road in understanding what this phenomena is. (00:22:25)
[George Knapp] : As it is, we don't understand it at all. We don't know where it's from, why it's here, what its interest is in us. We don't know what the answer is to any of those big questions, but it is possible. It could have been achieved if it had been allowed to continue. Also, the specific cases. TICTAC is probably the most famous UFO case in the world. That was an OSAP project. (00:22:46)
[George Knapp] : They launched that investigation. And although we've seen bits and pieces of what OSAP was able to determine about the TICTAC, the bulk of that information, the analysis that was done with a specific kind of software, has never been made public. Colm could probably address that a lot better than I can, but let me finish this list. And then there are individual cases, things that happened at Skinwalker Ranch, crypto creatures, the different kinds of crap that were investigated, seen and investigated by OSAP at the ranch and then other places around the country. There's a case in Georgia that was investigated that is mind-boggling. (00:23:20)
[George Knapp] : There's a men in black type instance that happened in Kentucky that Colm can elaborate on. There's a Southern California incident in Ventura County where an entire family had these experiences over a number of days, saw alien beings, got them on camera, in fact, and it had a kind of a trick ending. But those kinds of cases, I don't think they have registered with the general public or the UFO public at all. (00:23:44)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Colm, do you want to add to that? (00:23:47)
[Colm Kelleher] : Yeah, I think exactly what George put out is the case. And I guess we can be blamed in some way because we sort of set out to write a fairly dense book in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. And we decided from the get-go that we could have added 100 pages of filler if we had so chosen, but we decided against that. And so I think the book is pretty dense. There's not a lot of fluff in there in terms of sort of going beyond what the facts were. (00:24:33)
[Colm Kelleher] : So I think a lot of people because of that, and I don't blame them personally, but a lot of people have missed some of the things that are in the book. And I think it does probably demand more than one reading. And, you know, a lot of people I've noticed on social media and etc. have focused and sort of said that the OSAP program was only focused on Skinwalker Ranch, and it was only focused on exploring ghost(Curt Jaimungal)s and what have we. But the fact is, you know, we submitted 104 separate reports to the Defense Intelligence Agency as separate deliverables during the OSAP program, and only a minority of those reports were focused on Skinwalker Ranch. The remainder of the reports focused on, you know, we did a pretty extensive engineering analysis of the TIC-TAC incident, and we compiled a report based on ANSYS multi-physics analysis of the TIC-TAC case, computational fluid dynamics analysis. (00:25:46)
[Colm Kelleher] : That was a 140 plus page report that was submitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency that was completely separate from the report that Axelrod submitted on his investigation and his investigation of the TIC-TAC effect. So we also had a lot of investigations of things like the Russian UFO papers that George Knapp brought back from Russia. That was completely independent of Skinwalker Ranch, and we employed three separate Russian translators. We got a lot of the documentation. (00:26:27)
[Colm Kelleher] : We got all of the documentation translated. We had analysts take a look at it, and we were... it was a mind-boggling array of an organizational chart in Russia's slash Soviet Union in the early 1990s, which showed that the Soviet Union had this massive program that was focused on gathering UFO data nationwide at a national level. Government departments were involved as well as university departments involved. There was also this military unit called 73790 that was involved, and it seemed to be the sort of the linchpin of the entire investigation. And, you know, there have been whispers about unit 73790 as being sort of fundamental to the Soviet Union and later the Russian focus on the UAP agenda. (00:27:26)
[Colm Kelleher] : But, you know, Senator Reid, when he was instrumental in forming this program, one of the really sort of alarming things in his mind was the prospect that another country would be gaining traction on the United States. And, you know, he had in mind Russia and China, but other countries also, that they were gaining a technological edge because they were actually taking the UFO topic a lot more seriously in these countries than they were in the United States. You know, we have publicly... we know we had Project Sign, we had Project Grudge, we had Project Blue Book, and then sort of laterally we had this very large OSAP program, which unfortunately was prematurely truncated after two years, just as it was really sort of getting going. (00:28:19)
[Colm Kelleher] : And then we had this very small effort in the Pentagon called ATIP. You know, so in terms of the publicly available knowledge of how seriously the United States government was taking the UFO phenomenon, the thread three documents that OSAP translated and analyzed shows pretty unequivocally that the Soviet Union slash Russia had a much more serious and wider scope program. (00:28:48)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay, let's talk about the hitchhiker effect for a little while. This question comes from Arthur Switalski, and if I'm mispronouncing that, well, forgive me. I believe this comes from Twitter. So I'm going to paraphrase this. It seems like the hitchhiker effect is akin to a contagion. And the way that I understand it is that it must be that it decreases with severity the more that it's spread from person to person. Otherwise, we'd all have it because we're connected. (00:29:17)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : So firstly, does it decrease? Have you found any evidence that it decreases when it spreads from person to person? (00:29:23)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, I would say sort of the poster child for the hitchhiker effect in terms of our ability to study it over time. I think your listener, that's a very good question, actually, because it does have a lot of implications. But the poster child for this was the Axelrod family. So Axelrod was the sort of the primary infectee on Skidwalker Ranch. He flew 2,000 miles back to his home in Virginia. Within a few weeks, both his sons and his wife had experienced these dramatic effects that George has alluded to. (00:30:08)
[Colm Kelleher] : At the same time, neighbors started reporting—this was like a few months later—neighbors started reporting eruptions of unusual effects. School kids that the Axelrod kids knew also started reporting weird creatures outside their bedrooms. And remember, the Axelrod family, the guy in the Axelrod family had top-secret security clearances, was a very high-level Navy person. So the family were well used to keeping secrets. They were not sort of the kind of kids that went to school and blabbed about what their family was doing. So they kept very quiet about this whole thing. (00:31:02)
[Colm Kelleher] : So bottom line is that there was a spread out into the neighbors and out into the school kids. The real question is how far this actually spread. And we do not have a full grasp on exactly how far it spread. But I think the questioner is really correct because we probably would have picked up additional cases if this had spread into large areas around the neighborhood as opposed to what we actually did pick up. In other cases, we know that it's spread through kids and in some cases, co-workers also were subject to this. (00:31:54)
[Colm Kelleher] : But we do not have—I would say the N is too small. And again, this comes back to the fact that the OSOP program was prematurely truncated. And the original plan was to have a five-year program. We believe if OSOP had been allowed to continue for the full five years with 50-plus full-time employees, we would have made a lot of inroads into answering the kind of questions about how far the hitchhiker effect extends. Because one of my backgrounds is in virology. (00:32:33)
[Colm Kelleher] : And it's pretty obvious from the coronavirus update. Everybody is familiar with the R0 concept and the ability of a virus to infect new host(Curt Jaimungal)s. So the epidemiological analysis of the hitchhiker effect is crying out to be done if there was a follow-up program for OSOP that could document additional cases of the hitchhiker effect. Right now, we have probably between two and three dozen cases of the hitchhiker effect over the last 20 to 25 years. But we need an awful lot more than that in terms of documenting the extent of this effect. (00:33:25)
[Colm Kelleher] : But the tools of epidemiological analysis and modeling are widespread. Every other lab that studies coronavirus has epidemiological modeling and resources at their disposal. So this would be a very easy project to extend. All we need is additional cases. (00:33:50)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : George, do you have any comments on that? (00:33:54)
[George Knapp] : No, I agree that it was a great question. I haven't really considered it. I know that for us, my wife and I, we don't think it's spread any further than that. Of course, we have had no reports from people that we know. We don't have children. And the last couple of years, we've lived like hermits. So I guess that could explain part of it. But that's a great question, is how far it can spread. (00:34:15)
[George Knapp] : We don't know the answer to it. (00:34:16)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : See, what I'm wondering is, what are some of the other factors? So it seems proximity, spatial proximity is a factor, maybe temporal links. So how long am I spending with someone? What are some of the other factors? (00:34:30)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, one of the sort of questions that I've heard asked is, this could be just a series of fantasies that happen in these people's minds, etc. But there are indications that, for example, in the Axelrod family, that this creature that the wife saw independently from two kids in their home, left physical tracks. So for example, there were claw marks on the tree. When the Axelrod family went out to investigate, after the second incident with the kids, they found all these really obvious claw marks on the tree, right on the exact tree that the wife had seen this creature leaning against. That's number one. (00:35:23)
[Colm Kelleher] : They also saw this creature throwing up a lot of leaves in the backyard as it was running. One of the Axelrod kids got besieged by orbs one night in 2011, and woke up with physical marks on his body, or a lot of red, wet welts on his body. It looked like, you know, frankly, it looked like he had been beaten up after a night in which there was a lot of this quote-unquote paranormal activity in his house and in his bedroom. But he had physical marks on his body, and they actually brought him to the ER just to check him out and make sure that he was at home from school the following day. (00:36:09)
[Colm Kelleher] : He had intense influenza-like symptoms after that, too. So this is not only a mind phenomenon. It does have physical effects on the environment. So it could be both. But I wanted to emphasize that there are physical effects in the environment as well. (00:36:34)
[George Knapp] : And just to add to, just a reminder, the health consequences for people who come into contact with these phenomena, not just at the ranch. I mean, you can look at the highly publicized cases where Navy pilots have encountered UFOs. Without being too specific or giving away personal information, you can bet that there's a chance that some of those have had these experiences as well. And when they go home, it's not just poltergeist-type activity. There are severe health consequences. (00:37:03)
[George Knapp] : There are diseases. Perhaps your audience, Kurt, will remember recent comments by Dr. Gary Nolan, where he admits he was contacted by CIA to look into some of these long-term health consequences for people who encounter UFOs. Nothing to do with Skinwalker Ranch. But people who get too close for too long to UFOs have severe medical and health consequences that last for a long time. We need to understand that. We need to understand how that works. (00:37:30)
[George Knapp] : It's not just weird stuff that they see in their rooms at night. It's diseases and health consequences that put their lives in danger. Kit Green wrote a paper about it for OSAP, for BAS. It's one of the 38 DIRDs, the reports that were funded by BAS to establish a sort of a baseline for different aspects of what OSAP was going to study. They contacted these different professionals, professors, PhDs, to look into specific topics that was related to their own level of expertise. Hypersonics, for example. (00:38:06)
[George Knapp] : Most of the people who wrote those papers didn't know they were writing it as part of a UFO study funded by DIA. But they wrote it anyway, projecting what our state-of-the-art knowledge of in a particular specialty is, projecting it out over 40 or 50 years. One of those papers, one of those 38 DIRDs written by Dr. Kit Green, neuroscientist, was looking at the medical effects. That work has inspired Dr. Gary Nolan and others to take it a little bit further and look at what are the health consequences of coming into proximity or contact with a UFO. (00:38:41)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : I should also let you know that the audience for this is so variegated. It runs the gamut from people who are extremely familiar with the UFO space to people who are more interested in the bread and butter of this channel, Theoretical Physics, Math, Consciousness. So often there are these acronyms and they may be unfamiliar to many people. So please, if you have an acronym, just a one-sentence explanation, like what is OSAP, DIA, etc., when they come up. I know it's tedious, but there's many questions about that. (00:39:09)
[George Knapp] : No, that's great. That's a good idea because it does get confusing for people. DIA is Defense Intelligence Agency. It's the Pentagon's version of the CIA. OSAP is the Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program. That was the acronym given to the BAS study, I'll get to BAS in a second, by the DIA. BAS is the Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Systems. It's an offshoot of Bigelow Aerospace. It was the contractor that got the contract from DIA for OSAP, if you've got all those acronyms straight. (00:39:41)
[George Knapp] : And then AATIP, which is the Advanced Aerospace Weapon... no, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, is sort of the successor to OSAP. It grew up out of the ruins of OSAP, so to speak. That's the program that was directed by Lou Elizondo. (00:39:56)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay, calm your... calm your... do you look like you're chomping at the bit? (00:40:03)
[Colm Kelleher] : No, no, I was actually removing something that came up on the screen. (00:40:11)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay, so this question comes from KF. And by the way, if there's someone in the audience who wants to work on a legend or a compendium about these acronyms so that it can be... so that someone can easily reference them, then please contact me. Okay, so KF has a question, a very serious question. Kurt, have they considered testing the hitchhiker syndrome with people who are blind or have been blind from birth? And are there different outcomes to this? (00:40:35)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : That's a very... it's actually extremely mean to test it on someone. But yeah, you understand the spirit of the question. (00:40:44)
[Colm Kelleher] : Yeah, yeah. I mean, you would have to sort of sign a lot of waivers, you know, and you know, you would have a lot of examination from the HIPAA. That's another acronym, but Health Insurance Portability Act, whatever it is, act. In other words, medical confidentiality. You would also have to make sure that you had institutional review board, you know, check that box too, before you got into that kind of research. Because this is human-based research, which is extremely tightly controlled by the National Institutes of Health. So once you checked all those boxes and provided, you know, all of the releases had been signed, it is theoretically possible to have people who are blind. (00:41:41)
[Colm Kelleher] : You know, all the way across the spectrum, there's a whole series of studies that were conducted by a psychiatrist called Kenneth Ring. And he studied, actually, these anomalous experiences in blind people and found that the anomalous experiences included consciousness-related experiences like near-death experiences, and found that the blind individuals were absolutely equally capable of seeing near-death experiences as they were as, you know, people with normal sight. Now, that's quite a leap between what we're discussing and near-death experiences. (00:42:34)
[Colm Kelleher] : But I'm saying that there is precedent for that kind of an analysis. But it does go back to the question of how big is the N? And the N is pretty small with the data that we have in hand. Really, what we want to see, I think, George and I and Jim Lukatsky, is another program that is focused in the same way that utilizes the OSOP template to study the UFO problem and not just confine it to small sort of rifle shot type studies that focus only on military pilots. Once you start looking at effects of these UFO encounters on people, then you start getting into things like the hitchhiker effect. (00:43:25)
[Colm Kelleher] : And we think that there's enough rumor and innuendo regarding some of the military pilots that have encountered these UFOs to warrant studies that are long-term on human effects as well, including psychological effects, but also medical effects, and especially over long-term. The old days of UFO investigations occurring on people's own time during the weekends, which is sort of the classic model of UFO studies, the sort of weekend warrior model, that really does not apply in this case. You've got to have the resources to be able to study these people long-term, and I'm talking months or years in some cases, in order to fully delineate these kinds of effects. (00:44:18)
[Colm Kelleher] : I mean, if you go out on a weekend and you interview somebody for three or four hours, you record that interview and you go home, the chances are you will pick up only a very small percent of that person's UFO experience. You'll pick up data on UFO parameters, performance parameters, how close it was, how fast it did right angle turns, what kind of lights it might have had, and you can try to sort of marry that to theoretical physics concepts. But really what you need to do is to do that, but also to look at the long-term effects on humans. (00:44:58)
[Colm Kelleher] : Because without both sides of that equation, I think you're looking at a very distorted data set. (00:45:06)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay, speaking of physics, this question comes from Mossy Moose. During the OSAP program, and potentially continuing into the present day, what sorts of energy signatures pass through the experiencers of UAPs and the phenomenon in close proximity? And is it related to neutrinos? Does this type of detectable and measurable energy signature play a role in the hitchhiker effect? (00:45:29)
[George Knapp] : That's a pretty good question too. I'm not a scientist. I don't pretend to be a scientist. Colum, that maybe is a better question for him. And I don't know if they ever were able to get that specific. (00:45:42)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, the only, I guess, medical effects that we were able to document involved, we think, some form of potentially non-ionizing radiation. There was another case that George briefly mentioned, and this pertains to what I'm talking about. In Georgia, this guy was alerted by his dog barking outside. And this is a case that we investigated pretty over a long period of time. But he went outside, his young boy, and a couple of neighbors were in a tent in their backyard. They were kind of in a sleepover. (00:46:34)
[Colm Kelleher] : He went out to check on them and check on the dog. And right over his property, hovering silently, was this massive black triangle, this large black triangle. Now, it was nighttime, so he couldn't get a good fix, but he figured it was very, very low. He said it was massive, the size of a football field. So, it was right over his property. So, we tried taking cell phone photos. And, you know, all that came out was just blackness, because he could see it silhouetted against the sky, but the resolution of his iPhone camera was insufficient to pick it up. (00:47:14)
[Colm Kelleher] : So, we went back inside and pulled out. He had a very powerful flashlight. So, we went back outside. This thing was still hovering above him. So, he shone the flashlight up at it to see if he could see any features on the underside of this craft. And almost immediately, this large, intense blue ray came from the front side of the triangle and shot right on him. And he immediately felt, you know, a lot of heat and a lot... he was kind of blinded and felt a lot of heat. He turned around and crouched away from this. (00:47:54)
[Colm Kelleher] : But at that stage, he felt a lot of heat on his neck and his back. So, he got, you know, he ran inside because he, you know, he felt threatened. But this blue light was probably a foot in diameter. And it seemed to be instantaneous reaction to him shining the flashlight at the underside of this object. So, he looked at it from the window and it took off at enormous speeds, heading, you know, up in the sky and was gone very, very quickly. So, he went to bed and sort of woke up with a very strong metallic taste in his mouth. (00:48:36)
[Colm Kelleher] : He had a lot of sunburn on the back of his neck. He had a headache. He did not feel well and sort of... so, investigations started. We were contacted as part of the BASS MUFON. MUFON is the acronym for Mutual UFO Network. Yeah. So, we were contacted via MUFON about this case. So, we sent investigators out. We photographed this guy. He started losing his hair on the back of his head. And we had one of our physician scientists go out and visit him. (00:49:16)
[Colm Kelleher] : And he organized a set of medical visits to the local clinic that documented him. Over time, he had a lot of health effects. He had intense nausea over this whole case. And so, you know, there was indirect evidence, not direct evidence, but from the constellation of medical symptoms, including sort of strong metallic taste in his mouth, losing hair, intense sunburn on his skin, and some other features. One of the hypotheses that we came up with for this case and for other cases was non-ionizing radiation. But we were never able to get more specific than that. (00:50:04)
[Colm Kelleher] : It was some form of electromagnetic radiation. And we were not able to pinpoint intensity or we were not able to pinpoint exact wavelength. But there was a hypothesis put forward that needs to be validated over time in future cases that non-ionizing radiation was used on this guy. There was a whole plethora of other strange effects that this guy went through. He had all these bizarre electronic interference phenomena that were erupted in his home. He had, as I said, a lot of medical effects. (00:50:45)
[Colm Kelleher] : A lot of these tumors started growing in his body. Luckily, they turned out to be benign and he was diagnosed with Castleman's disease. And eventually, after a couple or a few years, he got better and pulled out of it. But he was besieged by low-flying black helicopters at one stage, which is another sort of feature that is associated with the UFO phenomenon. But why is it associated with the UFO phenomenon? We don't have the answer to that. (00:51:23)
[Colm Kelleher] : But one of the things that the lessons learned from OSOP is that we think the template is robust. The template should be repeated and it should be extended beyond a two-year program. So, you know, the bottom line for the future, we think, for UFO studies is to do a five-plus-year study with the kinds of resources that OSOP had and the kinds of personnel that were devoted exclusively to investigating the UFO mystery. Because, you know, as everybody knows, as a lot of your listeners know, we've been looking at this, you know, in the public eye for 75 years. (00:52:09)
[Colm Kelleher] : That's an awful long time to be wondering, what is this phenomenon? You know, one of the things that the OSOP program was tasked to do was to delineate whether or not this phenomenon was a threat to the United States and a threat to national security. Bottom line is, you know, there are two aspects of threat analysis. One is capability and the other is intent. So, part A was capability, and we, our data warehouse and databases were full of instances where we were able to map out the capabilities of the UFO phenomenon. But in terms of intent, is a really big question mark. (00:52:57)
[Colm Kelleher] : After 75 years of looking at this UFO phenomenon, we still have no idea regarding whether or not what the intent or what the agenda of this phenomenon is. So, therefore, our final report to the Defense Intelligence Agency, we did not say that the UFO phenomenon was a threat to national security. We said it was a threat to human health. And that's a very, very different, you know, parsing of that sort of concept. It's a very, very different thing to say it's a bad thing for people to be close to UFOs, but we were not able to gather enough data to determine whether or not this was a threat to national security. (00:53:43)
[George Knapp] : I'd like to add, Kurt, if there's one underlying message from our book, one lesson learned from the OSAP program, it's that you need to follow the evidence where it leads. The Defense Intelligence Agency crafted this program as a UFO study. That was its primary focus is on UFOs, the technology. Whose is it? Is it a threat? Can we duplicate it? Can we figure it out and duplicate it? But it also had, and everyone at DIA and within BAS understood, that it also was going to follow the evidence wherever it led. (00:54:16)
[George Knapp] : Since our book came out and some of the details about OSAP and BAS, we've had a lot of criticism. Oh, gosh, that was a silly program. They were ghost(Curt Jaimungal) hunters. They were looking at Bigfoot, all these goofy, silly topics, paranormal stuff that's been discredited. Well, that was not entirely true. It was a UFO program to start, but they follow the evidence where it led. And it led into some pretty strange areas. They didn't set out and didn't want to study ghost(Curt Jaimungal)s or poltergeists. (00:54:43)
[George Knapp] : And we don't even know if that's what they were studying. But they did study the effects that were in proximity to UFO events, followed the evidence where it led, and it led into some very uncomfortable areas. The Pentagon, of course, has been a little less than honest with the public about its interest in UFOs. But finally, as a result of the AATEP story that was in the New York Times and testimony from a lot of the people that work with Column at OSAP behind closed doors, Congress is finally interested in the UFO aspect and more power to them. We're glad that they took the trouble to find out about the national security implications of these UFO encounters over military bases. (00:55:23)
[George Knapp] : If that is the engine that drove the interest in creating a new program, which they have done, great. But you can't just stop there. Again, the underlying message of OSAP, BASS, the book that we wrote, is you have to follow the evidence where it leads. You cannot solve this mystery or these multiple mysteries by just looking at military cases, at UFOs that appear over military bases, at UFOs that are picked up on sensors, or on thermal images like Tic Tac, like Gimbal. You're never going to solve the big picture by only looking at that stuff. (00:55:56)
[George Knapp] : You have to follow the evidence where it leads, and that takes courage, and it takes some money too. (00:56:00)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : So... When I was speaking to Travis Walton, he was of the opinion that some of these beings are benevolent and that they would cure cancer potentially. Someone else thought this as well. I believe her name is Anjali. She believes that they're kind, bestowing, generous, helpful. It doesn't sound like you all believe that, but please comment on that. (00:56:21)
[George Knapp] : Well, we don't even know if that's one intelligence or multiple. Maybe there's more than one, more than one answer. Maybe they're extraterrestrial. Maybe they're interdimensional. Maybe they're time travelers. Maybe there's something else more exotic, crypto-terrestrials, ultra-terrestrials. We really don't know. And we don't know that it's just one. It could be many different ones with different kinds of agendas. Yeah, there are indications. (00:56:44)
[George Knapp] : Call them alien editorials. People who are contactees, abductees over the years, who say they've been given messages by these beings. We want you to take care of your planet. We want you to be kind to each other. Quit blowing up atomic bombs. Pay attention to the environment. You're polluting your planet. They express an interest in human development and human health. And there are rare instances where they've supposedly helped humans overcome crippling diseases. But overall, you know, there are a lot of contrary indications as well. (00:57:14)
[George Knapp] : Sometimes these intelligences seem to be just completely oblivious to us. They don't care whether we see them or not. They don't seem to want to interact with us. Sometimes they lie to us. Jim Semivan of CIA, I interviewed him a couple of days ago. He says, you know, looking at the databases and then the vast overarching information about the subject is that we don't know what they're here for or what their interest is in us. They lie to us. (00:57:41)
[George Knapp] : They trick us. They mislead us. They take on different shapes. We don't know where they're from. We don't know how long they've been here. I mean, we don't know any of the answers to the really big questions. So I am reluctant to assign a motive to any of them of these different intelligences. We don't even know how many of them there are. (00:57:59)
[Colm Kelleher] : I would agree with that. I think the vast majority of the cases that we looked at through the OSOP database seemed to indicate that people were having physiological effects and medical effects. But there were a subset of cases that do directly address your listener's question. And, you know, there was a sense of uplift, you know, feeling that at the end of the day that this was a positive effect on, you know, they had a life-changing experience as a result of interaction with UFOs. But in general, it was a positive effect. (00:58:45)
[Colm Kelleher] : And, you know, as George mentioned, there were sort of, there are sporadic cases of these where people are healed, quote-unquote, from various ailments as a result. These are anecdotal, you know, everything to do with UFOs is anecdotal, unfortunately. But, you know, in our database, I think that the vast majority of the cases were not this benign subset, but there was a benign subset associated with positive effects. I mean, even going back to Skinwalker Ranch, just after the Sherman family had sold the property to Robert Bigelow in 1996, the last thing that they saw as the husband and wife were on the property was they looked up and it was a bright, sunny day. (00:59:39)
[Colm Kelleher] : And this disc, this silver disc came right down and hovered, you know, it was in the sky. And they felt enormous positive feelings and sort of, you know, after the nightmare they'd just gone through over a two-year period, this was sort of the parting shot from a silver disc, which was a classic UFO in the sky. And their overwhelming take-home message from that encounter was very positive, you know, very joyful, etc., etc. We have no idea why that happened or was this just a random occurrence, but it was a very positive experience in their book. (01:00:28)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Speaking of books, there are plenty of questions which reference the book. In fact, this guy, Arthur, who asked a question earlier, Arthur Switalski, he's such a trooper, he just outlined page number and then a question on that page number. So on page 49, he says, in regard to Lou Elizondo's remote viewing talents, has Lou or anyone else on the team of Bass used their remote viewing capabilities to see into installations of that purportedly house, craft, slash, bodies, or to communicate with, slash, locate UAPs? And then they even wrote, in bracket, this ties into page 120 on remote viewing. (01:01:07)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, I'm glad they have spent so much time annotating the pages because, frankly, I don't know what page 120 says. But in terms of remote viewing, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies proposed a remote viewing project to Defense Intelligence Agency as part of the menu of proposals that we submitted in response to the request for proposals that DIA put out. DIA actually rejected that proposal. They said, we don't want to spend enormous amounts of money training remote viewers, but they did allow us to conduct a pilot program on remote viewing. And in the book, we did a contract with legendary remote viewer, Joe McMonigle, who, per the usual method for remote viewing, we gave him only latitude and longitude coordinates. (01:02:14)
[Colm Kelleher] : And he produced a report for the Defense Intelligence Agency ultimately with BAS. And in it, he mapped out the property, and he talked about various beings on the property. In terms of a full-fledged remote viewing exercise, we were not permitted under the contract that we were given to do a full remote viewing during the BAS program. So, we were not permitted to do that by the Defense Intelligence Agency. (01:02:51)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : George, do you have anything to add to that? (01:02:55)
[George Knapp] : Yeah, I'd add this, is that Colm and I wrote an earlier book called Hunt for the Skinwalker, which was mainly focused on NIDS, which is the National Institute for Discovery Science, pardon all the acronyms. But NIDS was an organization created by Mr. Bigelow prior to him getting a contract for the DIA to run this other program. And NIDS studied, among other things, Skinwalker Ranch in Utah. And just as sort of an experiment, as a side note, while preparing that book, I had tasked a remote viewing group here in Nevada to take a look at the ranch without telling them what I was asking them to look at. They found some interesting things. (01:03:31)
[George Knapp] : They found evidence of military surveillance. They found some indications of underground facilities and control rooms. So they were able to pierce the veil of a sort. But of course, I was never able to physically verify what they saw in these remote viewing visions was actually physically there. Yeah, it would be a really interesting task and an endeavor to try to get remote viewers to take a look at not just the ranch, but other places like Area 51 or places where we suspect recovered disks or medical metal pieces, bits and pieces from crash sites might be stashed. We haven't done it. (01:04:07)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay, this question comes from DaGummit. I'm late to the party, but I finally read the book. Sobering is right. Two questions. Number one, do other countries have the same after effects, specifically the archetypal beasts as North America, because it seems culturally specific? And then, well, let's tackle that one first. (01:04:28)
[George Knapp] : Well, for example, Bigfoot, if you talk about crypto creatures, has been seen everywhere in the world. I think maybe Hawaii might be the only place where something like it hasn't been seen. And I could be wrong there. So a lot of the crypto type creatures that we see here, dogmen, wolfmen, you know, creatures that are were creatures, they've been seen all over the world in every culture. So there are a lot of similarities. (01:04:52)
[George Knapp] : I think there are specific kinds of crypto creatures that are unique to different parts of the world. We've seen at Skinwalker, we've seen a mix of them. I mean, it almost gets bizarre and ridiculous. There are creatures that have been seen there by the ranchers and property owners, neighbors that don't exist in nature. Colum saw one of them. Colum experienced that walking with the female intelligence officer in the middle homestead at the ranch, and they saw what people have laughingly called a dino beaver. Colum, maybe you want to tell that story, what this thing looked like? (01:05:26)
[Colm Kelleher] : Yeah, I was, I was on the property with Robert Bigelow and with the person in the book who was a defense and intelligence analyst. Her name was Juliette Witt. And, you know, during the day, Juliette and I had walked the property, we had done a lot of photography of the property. I had briefed Juliette on the various incidents that had happened during the National Institute for Discovery Science program on the ranch. Juliette climbed up on top of the Skinwalker Ridge, which is the northern property or the northern part of the of the ranch. (01:06:12)
[Colm Kelleher] : And she took a lot of photographs. So that night at about 10 o'clock, myself, Robert Bigelow and Juliette went down to an area near Homestead number two, which is kind of the center of the ranch, but also the location where over the last 25 years, there have been literally dozens of anomalies reported and recorded and, and witnessed. So what we did was, we had, we had chairs with us, we sat out in the, in the middle of a pasture near Homestead two, about probably, I don't know, 50 feet away from Homestead two. And the way the chairs were oriented were, we were back to back to back. (01:06:59)
[Colm Kelleher] : So each one of us was facing in a 60, 60 degree angle away from each other. So we could essentially cover the entire 360 degrees. So we noticed, myself and Robert Bigelow noticed that Juliette was, was really getting, you know, she was getting pretty jumpy because, you know, it was pretty, it was very, very dark. It was, you know, you could see the faint light of Homestead's way in the distance. And we were sitting out, sort of sitting ducks in her mind, and I guess in our minds too, sitting ducks for anything that wanted to sort of pass by. (01:07:38)
[Colm Kelleher] : So she was getting pretty nervous. So Robert Bigelow sort of got up and walked down. He was strolling down about a hundred yards south. So I got up to, you know, to head over to the opposite direction in the direction of the Homestead two building, which is an abandoned homestead about a hundred years old. That's kind of like in ruins. So about 30 feet in front of me, I see this, what looks like a, maybe somewhere between a hundred to 150 pound creature that's motoring along the tree line in front of me. It's about 30 feet away. (01:08:19)
[Colm Kelleher] : I looked over at Juliette Witt and she's looking at it too. And this thing looked like it had like blocks on the spine emanating from the spine. I guess the nearest equivalent I can think of in terms of what I was looking at is a very, very small version of a Stegosaurus, but I could see also, and this was very, very dim light. This creature was motoring north and it was absolutely silent. It had what looked like a flat tail, low to the ground. (01:08:56)
[Colm Kelleher] : And it was a pretty bulky creature. I mean, it was small, but it was pretty bulky. And my estimate, you know, in hindsight was probably somewhere between a hundred and 150 pounds. But what the most bizarre aspect of this whole thing was that it was like a cone of silence had descended on the, you know, on this whole area. And, you know, even the crickets, you know, this kind of ambient noise out on Skinwalker Ranch when you're sitting there for hours, all of that had stopped. There was no noise whatsoever. (01:09:30)
[Colm Kelleher] : And this thing was motoring north. It should have been rustling and, you know, leaves and grass as it went by. It was maybe, I guess, I'm guessing about 30, maybe 40 feet away from me. It was probably 50 feet away from Juliet. So we watched this thing. It made a beeline for the corner of the abandoned homestead too, and went behind it. And it was like, you know, probably a few seconds later, myself and Juliet sort of went right over to try to follow this thing to get a better view of it. And we couldn't see any sight of it. (01:10:07)
[Colm Kelleher] : We went around the corner of the building, turned right, and there's a sort of a gap between the corner of the building and a set of trees that eventually ends up on the track that goes east-west on Skinwalker Ranch. We could not see any sign of this creature. But, you know, it's kind of like the moment in time was pretty short, you know, maybe, I don't know, probably less than 30 seconds when we were looking at this, there was absolute silence. And it was like a sort of a version of shock when you're seeing something like this. (01:10:45)
[Colm Kelleher] : And then by the time it got behind the building, I mean, if we had the ultimate sort of planning move into high gear, instead of being involved with this Oz effect, we could have got the night vision binoculars out. We searched for the creature with night vision binoculars, but we couldn't find anything. But this is an example of the kind of thing that happens on Skinwalker Ranch. And yes, it is very easy to sit on a couch or sit on an armchair and say, why the hell didn't you guys, you know, take your night vision binoculars out? (01:11:25)
[Colm Kelleher] : But you had to be there. You know, there are plenty of instances on Skinwalker Ranch, when we have captured photographs, we have captured videos of fast moving orbs and this kind of thing. We have gobs of photographs of these orb-like structures on Skinwalker Ranch. But that time looking at this creature, you know, if I had to do it all over again, I would have had the night vision binoculars a lot more sort of prepared in my grasp. (01:11:57)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : For people who want to see some of those images that you recorded or videos, where did they go? (01:12:02)
[Colm Kelleher] : They're all in the NIS repository, which has never been released. (01:12:10)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Is there a plan to release it? (01:12:14)
[Colm Kelleher] : I don't own that data set. That would have to be the owner of the data set. And that would be Robert Bigelow and NIS. I mean, NIS was a private company, and it was accumulating privately held data for analysis. Now, all of the data that NIS acquired over time is still on the NIDS website. There's a cached version of the NIDS website. We wrote gobs and gobs of papers that we published on the NIDS website. All you need to do is Google National Institute for Discovery Science Wikipedia, and you will find a full cached version of the NIDS website. (01:13:01)
[Colm Kelleher] : There are dozens and dozens of papers on the NIDS website that the NIDS scientists actually published on that website. So, in terms of our published data, it's all available. It just happens photographs of orbs are not available, but there is a very large data set of published literature involving everything from investigations of cattle mutilations to investigations of UFO phenomena. And they're all written up in the scientific vernacular on the NIDS website. And actually, I looked at this website yesterday, so it is actually available as we speak. (01:13:44)
[Colm Kelleher] : So, if people want to look at the raw data as published in these NIDS studies, they're all available in this cached website. (01:13:54)
[George Knapp] : I should point out the OSAP information and database is mostly not public either. We've given in our book, we've given a glimpse of what was available. As Colin mentioned earlier, BASS produced 104 reports that were submitted to DIA, many of them with photographs and charts and all kinds of evidence. That information has not been made public. We hope that someday it will be. You know, in writing the book, we told as much of that story as we were allowed to tell. It took 14 months for the Pentagon to sign off on our manuscript. (01:14:30)
[George Knapp] : They went through this DOPSER process. We did have to make some changes that they mandated, and specifically, especially about names of active duty personnel. We told as much of that story as we could, but there's a gigantic amount of information that was sent to DIA that I know a lot of FOIA requests have been filed. None of that has been made public yet, but we think it should all be made public eventually. (01:14:55)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : This question comes from Jackson Vega. Ask them what they think of Stephen Greer's CE5 protocol. (01:15:02)
[George Knapp] : Well, I think it's worth a try. You know, I had a chance to interview some guys who they are sort of like the prophet Yahweh, which is this guy who 20 years ago said he could call in UFOs. And he'd go out and meditate and try to draw things in. And sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. There's a group of fellows that I know who have tried this, picked up the mantle, and have had some amazing experiences that they've videotaped. Summoners, I think they call it summoning. (01:15:39)
[George Knapp] : So it does happen. It can happen. Stephen Greer, who did some really great early work in getting UFO whistleblowers to come forward, getting their testimony out to national media organizations, is a champion of the CE5. He charges a lot of money for people to go out into the desert with him and call in flying saucers. A lot of people are put off by how expensive it gets and where the money goes, especially since it looks like people can do this on their own without paying Stephen Greer to do it. I don't know if it really works, but what the heck, I say it's worth giving it a try. (01:16:15)
[George Knapp] : Colm, do you have any thoughts on it? (01:16:17)
[Colm Kelleher] : Yeah, I would agree. I think it's worth attempting it. I know that it's been attempted in multiple places. There's been large programs in South America associated with summoning UFOs. And from the reports that I've seen, mostly not scientific reports, but books and magazine articles, that there does seem to be a level of success. But I would inject a note of caution into this is be careful what you actually summon. And it could be that these objects come in all shapes and sizes. (01:17:00)
[Colm Kelleher] : And like we've said for the last hour or so, we don't know what the agenda of these objects are. I mean, it could be some have a benign agenda and it could be that some have not a benign agenda. So I would inject a note of caution. I personally would not do that because I have too much respect and caution regarding this phenomenon because we know too little about this phenomenon. And it's a case of be careful what you wish for. (01:17:33)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I've been told, Kurt, look into it and perform it. I'm not going to, at least not anytime soon, because it's playing with fire. It's worse than playing with fire. When I was speaking to Tom DeLonge, he expressed similar sentiments saying that you don't know what you're dealing with and it could be extremely, extremely dangerous. So I'm of that same opinion. (01:17:57)
[Colm Kelleher] : Yeah, I mean, I kind of liken it to, I mean, if you summon anything without careful sort of training and all of that, you really are opening yourself up. I would say the same goes for ayahuasca tourism, for example, and this whole idea of sort of going to somebody's place that you don't know who they are and taking a bunch of ayahuasca or DMT or any of the hallucinogenics. Again, it's be careful what you wish for. (01:18:31)
[Colm Kelleher] : I mean, the originator of this whole DMT phenomenon, Rick Strassman, who was actually, you know, he was fundamental in sort of initiating the focus on DMT in the Western world. And he did an NIH-sponsored study of injecting a whole bunch of volunteers under medical supervision in New Mexico. And there's an enormous number of these young volunteers reported encountering these creatures and unusual people in these other realms. But, you know, Rick Strassman later on decided to back away from that research because he found that some of these young people were having long-term psychological effects. (01:19:27)
[Colm Kelleher] : And again, you know, under controlled conditions, it's all very well to do this, but, you know, what are the long-term effects? And what are these entities that people are actually meeting and conversing with? I mean, do you really get the secrets of the universe or do you get something that you may not have bargained for and that you find a lot of difficulty in getting rid of? And, you know, I mean, the list goes on and on. (01:19:55)
[Colm Kelleher] : Teenagers playing ouija boards and what have we. You've got to have a certain amount of caution when you're approaching these kinds of phenomena, and especially when we know so little about what the long-term effects are. (01:20:09)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : This question comes from Richard Brewster. I just read Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Now, with all this research being unable to come to conclusions as to the origins or intents of the phenomenon, does something lead you to speculate in one extraterrestrial origin direction versus the phenomenon being of Earth origin? (01:20:34)
[George Knapp] : I'll just say I've been, as an investigative reporter, I've been chasing this since the late 80s. I think the first UFO-related interview I did was 1987. And I jumped into with both feet starting in 1989. And the dominant paradigm at that time was these are ETs. Within UFO world, within the community of UFO researchers, they generally thought these are extraterrestrials or visitors from other planets who've been coming here for a long time. If you look back at the history of humanity, of recorded history, these things have been reported in every culture on every continent throughout human history in one form or another. (01:21:12)
[George Knapp] : They've been with us a long time, maybe been here longer than us. But we still don't really know what they are. That ET paradigm that which is where I started, it changed over time, you know, reading Dr. Jacques Vallée's books. I think the first interview I had with him in 1990, he said, look, I'll tell you, I'm going to be really disappointed if it turns out that the ultimate answer to the UFO mystery is that it's merely visitors from other planets, because he said the technology that we've seen that's been demonstrated and documented over the years is they control space time. Somehow they can manipulate gravity and time and space in ways that we don't understand. (01:21:52)
[George Knapp] : So they could be extraterrestrial and interdimensional and time travelers all at once. They could be something even more exotic that we don't understand. I think the ET explanation is one that is possible, but we really don't know. I mean, some of these beings and their messages to contact these, they say they're from other planets. But again, I would emphasize you can't really trust them because they lied to us over the years. So ET is one possibility, but it's only one. (01:22:18)
[George Knapp] : And my suspicion is it's much more exotic and more complicated than that, that whatever it is, has been here with us forever, maybe longer than us, that it lives here. It's not from some other place that it lives here. And that's just a guess. We really don't know. And I'm not going to be the person to figure it out. Somebody's going to win a Nobel Prize someday figuring this out, but it's obviously not going to be me. Colin? (01:22:43)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, I think it's really a shame that for 75 years, a lot of really smart people have looked at this phenomenon. And there have been stops and starts and small programs, large programs, but ultimately this requires sort of a level of funding from the National Science Foundation, from the National Institutes of Health. I mean, the National Institutes of Health annual budget is $44 billion or $43 billion thereabouts. Even if a small subset of that were devoted to effects, long-term effects in terms of psychological effects, sociological effects, physical effects, medical effects of UFOs, I think that would be a window into this phenomenon. (01:23:46)
[Colm Kelleher] : If the National Science Foundation were able to fund, say, a 10-year program that would focus on getting to the heart of what this UFO performance, all of the physics associated with UFOs, and come up with a theoretical model based on actual data, that is really where I think this whole thing should be going. Because we are unfortunately in the situation where we've had small sort of programs that are trying to do something and then they get truncated or aborted. And there's a certain amount of data that comes out. (01:24:31)
[Colm Kelleher] : I think all we know at the end of the day is that what looks like some kind of intelligence seems to be interacting with the human race. Now, is that intelligence living on the planet since before humans? Or is it coming from another dimension? Or is it coming from another planet? There really is not enough data to come down on either side. I mean, we don't even know what sort of level of, I would guess, agenda or what is going to happen with this phenomenon in the future as it continues interacting with humans. It seems like over the last 75 years, there seemed to have been sort of a set of different waves associated with how this phenomenon has been interacting with humans. (01:25:29)
[Colm Kelleher] : But again, we're looking through sort of very distorted viewpoints. I'll give you one example. During the OSAP program, we interviewed Colonel Barry Hennessey, who is a legend at the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, also known as AFOSIPJ. And one of the things that he said was, yes, of course the Air Force utilized the UFO phenomenon back in the 70s and 80s to disguise some of our really advanced technology programs. When an advanced version of an aircraft crashed in northern New Mexico in the 80s, we did a lot of sort of behind the scene amplifying the idea that UFOs were involved in order to cover the tracks of a very advanced part of a special access program had crashed in northern New Mexico. So we know also from interviewing Colonel Hennessey that some of the so-called northern tier intrusions of UFOs into the northern tier Air Force bases, the missile bases that dot along the northern part of the United States near the Canadian border, some of those were actually ours. (01:26:53)
[Colm Kelleher] : They were intrusion detection operations to see how ready the Air Force bases were in terms of reacting to unknowns coming over. But Colonel Hennessey also told us some of the intrusions that happened were not ours. You know, it was like we have no idea who they were. They were certainly not ours, but we don't know who they were. So you have this sort of constant sort of ambiguity regarding who owns what's going on. Is it ours? (01:27:27)
[Colm Kelleher] : Or is it theirs? I mean, one of the analytical sort of tools that we've used at the end of OSOP was, we used this sort of idea that there's two levels of deception going on with the UFO phenomenon. One is the level of deception where the United States government and military is deceiving the public in terms of mimicking the UFO phenomenon for their own purposes in terms of operational security. And then there's the other side of the phenomenon where the phenomenon appears to be mimicking some of our special access programs. (01:28:10)
[Colm Kelleher] : For example, the eruption of the large black triangles that happened throughout the United States, through Europe, in many places in South America, all of these huge triangles seem to be very closely aligned with what a lot of people would have imagined were special access programs of the United States military. But at the same time, you know, there were hundreds of cases that were mapped and investigated by our organization, National Institute for Discovery Science and OSOP, that documented these large black triangles that were floating at very low altitudes, brightly lit over populated areas or down interstate highways. (01:28:58)
[Colm Kelleher] : Now, why would a special access program that was sort of top of the line technology by the military be so foolhardy as to, you know, be flying over populated areas, fully lit with bright lights, and sometimes altitudes reported by eyewitnesses a couple of hundred feet? I mean, that is a gross violation of national security parameters of special access programs. But yet, there are hundreds and hundreds of cases of these that were very, very well documented by both National Institute for Discovery Science and by OSOP. I mean, the case that I talked about in Georgia, involving this very large black triangle that was literally floating over this guy's neighborhood, that happened in 2009. I mean, it was, you know, it was not sort of way back in history, it was relatively recent. (01:29:57)
[Colm Kelleher] : But we have these... during the sort of investigative process, we have these two layers of deception that we always have to look through in order to get to the data regarding UFOs. And that's not like a normal aspect of scientific, you know, research or analysis. Normally, in the field of biology, or in the field of physics, you are not looking through data, or at data through a couple of layers of deception. I mean, it makes things very, very difficult of applying the scientific method to these kinds of problems. (01:30:38)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : George, anything to add to that? (01:30:41)
[George Knapp] : No, just sort of playing off of what I said to begin with, as you know, as a journalist, I've tried to get my head around this and have investigated it for more than 30 years. And I have the answers to it. The best evidence for me, what got me interested in the subject, is the paper trail. Our government has known for a long time, these things are real. And I know the scientific community, the journalism industry have both dismissed it, they've laughed at it, they've disregarded it, they've paid very little attention over many decades. (01:31:16)
[George Knapp] : But our government, our military specifically knows this is real, they've known it for a long time. And you can trace it through this paper trail documents, internal reports, many of them written before the Freedom of Information Act exists, in which they admit to each other candidly, in documents that they never thought would ever see the light of day. This is real. It's not ours. We don't think it's Russians, it can do things we can't do. We need to figure this out. (01:31:41)
[George Knapp] : And ever since then, there have been studies of it. I have followed that paper trail and others have as well. There's a legitimate mystery here that needs to be figured out. It hasn't been figured out. It's been dismissed and ridiculed and laughed at. And now, because of some of the information that's come forward and been made public by the likes of Dr. Callum Kelleher, Dr. Hal Puthoff, Dr. Kit Green, Dr. Eric Davis, Jacques Vallée, Edgar Mitchell, serious scientists, serious professionals who've had the courage to look at this and then allowed me to be a fly on the wall. There's a lot of progress that's been made. (01:32:18)
[George Knapp] : Hopefully, that will continue. But you can't just ignore it and ridicule it. Your viewers, Kurt, the people who listen to your program, big brain people like that, need to take a look at this. It's a legitimate mystery. It really is going on. It may be central to human existence. It may be the biggest question we ever tackle. Once we figure it out, it will change everything. We're already undergoing some changes because of the revelations of the last four years. (01:32:46)
[George Knapp] : And it's a worthwhile endeavor. We need to fund it. It needs to be studied. We need to figure this out. That's what I would add. (01:32:52)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : You mentioned that there are black helicopters that follow a UFO sighting. Do you think these helicopters are part of the phenomenon? Or do you think that they're government related? Is the government tracking, picking up some trace? What is the purpose? If you were to speculate off, obviously, when we're talking about this topic, all of it is speculation anyway, or most of it is speculation. (01:33:13)
[George Knapp] : My guess is it's both. It's both the phenomena that assumes different shapes. These things, these craft, the beings themselves are shape shifters. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence over a long period of time that they can change their shape. And I think some of them appear in the sky as black helicopters at the site of, for example, cattle mutilations, which is a whole other topic we can get into. And then there are government operatives who are monitoring the phenomena themselves, who assume that same thing, who operate, and they know that it's going to be dismissed as some weird conspiracy, some UFO related sighting. (01:33:50)
[George Knapp] : They can operate with impunity, knowing that there won't be any real investigation by science or the media, because it's conspiracy stuff. You know, it's wild, wacky conspiracy stories. I think in many cases, the black helicopters are both some unknown phenomena assuming that shape and our government monitoring that phenomenon. Colin? (01:34:08)
[Colm Kelleher] : Yeah. Back in the NIDS era, we were very fortunate to meet a guy called Captain Keith Wolverton, who was stationed in Cache County, just outside Milestone Air Force Base in the 70s and 80s. And, you know, Milestone Air Force Base is legendary in the UFO annals, because there have been so many incidents where low flying UFOs have been documented around Milestone Air Force Base, including during the late 1960s of the actual missile launch parameters being interfered with by UFOs. All of that is well documented in books. (01:34:55)
[Colm Kelleher] : But what really struck us in talking with Captain Keith Wolverton was that he became friendly with the base commander at Milestone Air Force Base. And so the police force around Milestone Air Force Base began a very close level of cooperation between the police and the military people on the Air Force Base. So anytime a UFO would show up, Captain Keith Wolverton knew about it. And so he was able to document over time, there would be sometimes jet aircraft launched from Milestone Air Force Base to try to intercept these UFOs. But one of the really weird features that happened during this wave of UFO activity was that side by side with this wave of UFO activity, there was also a wave of helicopters that neither the Air Force Base personnel or the police force that were tasked with investigating or co-investigating these cases had any idea where they were coming from. (01:36:04)
[Colm Kelleher] : Now, I'm not talking about one or two sightings of helicopters. I'm talking about somewhere between 50 and 100 separate sightings of these, quote unquote, black helicopters that seemed to show up in the aftermath of UFOs. And layered on top of that, according to Captain Keith Wolverton, was there was a literal explosion of unusual phenomena in people's homes and around the area within a 10-20 mile radius of Milestone Air Force Base. But the point I'm trying to make is that the Air Force Base commander was well aware of these black helicopters, and he had the wherewithal to be able to track of where these helicopters were coming from. (01:36:54)
[Colm Kelleher] : And he ran into a brick wall. I mean, he simply could not have any information on why these dozens and dozens of black helicopters were showing up around Milestone Air Force Base, usually in the aftermath of UFO sightings and launching fighter aircraft to intercept these UFO sightings. So that's one example of what I'm talking about. So we have this ambiguity regarding these helicopters. Who owns them? Who was flying them? (01:37:30)
[Colm Kelleher] : And why are they around? I mean, some of them are obviously United States military, and some of them actually have been tracked to various locations that they are obviously US military helicopters. But others are just they kind of seem to disappear into the into the woodwork. And there is a big question mark about their origins. So in answer to your question, I would say both. They're both United States military, and they're both from somewhere else. (01:38:04)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Is there any evidence that the cattle mutilations are because of the government that the government instigates them in some way? (01:38:12)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, that's a long, long story. I mean, OSOP did not do any investigations of cattle mutilations. There were two aspects that we decided, and the Defense Intelligence Agency decided we would not spend a lot of time and resources, actually three of them. One was the remote viewing that I've already discussed. The second was the cattle mutilation phenomenon. And the third one was we decided not to recruit a whole team to investigate UFO quote unquote abductions. Because again, that required an enormous amount of resources that we knew at the time were not going to be available. (01:39:01)
[Colm Kelleher] : So cattle mutilations were not investigated by the OSOP program. But back in the National Institute for Discovery Science era, we actually did a lot of forensic investigations of cattle mutilations. And again, I refer to the NIDS website, which you can find by googling National Institute for Discovery Science on Wikipedia. And there are dozens of reports of NIDS investigations of cattle mutilations. I will cut to the chase basically and say that we literally investigated dozens of mutilations. How do we investigate these? (01:39:47)
[Colm Kelleher] : We actually had full-time veterinarian on our staff. Veterinarian who was also a PhD in pathology, who was well used to doing necropsies, animal autopsies. And so our sort of bottom line was that cattle mutilations, there was a body of evidence that was lying on the ground. And if we could get to that body quick enough after death, that we might be able to get some answers. So we evolved over many years, a situation where we had a bunch of veterinarians who were accredited veterinarians on call. We had a bunch of police officers throughout the Western States and the United States also on call. (01:40:36)
[Colm Kelleher] : So we were able to get reports of cattle mutilations extremely quickly. And the third thing that we had was that we had a menu of analytical laboratories on call, on speed dial, so that if we did manage to get samples, we were able to do histopathology analysis. We were able to do chemical analysis, biochemical analysis, and pretty well all of the different analytical frameworks. So we were pretty well equipped at the end of NIS to be able to investigate cattle mutilations. And what we found was that there was really two types of mutilations. (01:41:20)
[Colm Kelleher] : One was the standard sort of mutilation where the eye, the ear, the sex organs were removed from the animal. And during that program for NIS, we did a lot of analytical chemistry. We did elemental analysis of the blood from mutilated animals. Occasionally we found what looked like sedatives. We used gas chromatography, mass spectrometry. We used liquid chromatography, mass spectrometry. We used coupled plasma mass spectrometry to determine elemental analysis. So we threw the kitchen sink in terms of analytical capability at what was in these animals following necropsy. (01:42:12)
[Colm Kelleher] : We also did histology analysis and we determined that, yes, sharp instruments were used, but some of the time we were able to document compounds like oxandol, succinylcholine, which are sedatives. So that made us suspicious. On other occasions, including investigations up in Montana, we were able to locate 10-gauge needles that were found under some of these animals. In other cases, we were able to find medical paraphernalia associated with exsanguinating an animal. In other words, hooking up an animal to a large-gauge needle and removing all the blood from the animal. (01:42:59)
[Colm Kelleher] : So we began to get suspicious as time went on that there was a pattern associated with some of these cases. So we put out the hypothesis that, you know, maybe this was part of a case of, you know, applying sedatives to the animals and then investigating these animals for the spread of, say, an infectious disease organism. And, you know, a lot of these infectious disease could be through the Western herds in the United States. We investigated or we put out the hypothesis that maybe some of these infectious proteins called prions might have been the source of concern as they were sort of exploding in the United Kingdom and Europe in the 1990s and killing a lot of people who were eating contaminated meat. (01:43:55)
[Colm Kelleher] : So there might have been a small, very, very small program. All you need is a couple of trained veterinarians, a couple of skilled surgeons, a couple of helicopters, a very small program, in other words, that could monitor the spread of an infectious organism through the cattle in the wild in the Western part of the United States. Why would you want to do that rather than going to, say, slaughterhouses and abattoirs and sampling from there? The answer to that is you would not get the same amount of data from sampling abattoirs and slaughterhouses as you would by flying in at night and basically sampling animals within several hundred miles if you were trying to track the spread of an infectious organism. (01:44:50)
[Colm Kelleher] : Prion is an infectious protein that was responsible for destruction of millions of animals in the United Kingdom and Europe. And it was a source of huge amounts of concern in the United States in the 1990s, especially the FDA and the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture, were very concerned about the spread of this. So that was one hypothesis we came up with. Why did we come up with this? Because we use forensic analysis to determine that somebody was using sharp instruments on these animals to cut them open. (01:45:36)
[Colm Kelleher] : We found that unequivocally from the histopathology analysis. And then we found all of these suspicious compounds through standard forensic analytical chemistry. And we also found evidence of medical hardware underneath and associated with a small number of these animals. So we put out this hypothesis. And again, these published papers are on the NIS website if people want to take a look at them. (01:46:08)
[George Knapp] : Let me add this, Kurt, to boil that down. So Colum's hypothesis was there are two levels of mutilators, mystery mutilators. There's the original one that's been carrying this out for decades under the cover of night, carving up animals with surgical precision, removing the same sort of parts, not leaving behind certain compounds, not leaving behind medical instruments. It's a complete mystery how it's carried out. There were some cases where high heat instrumentation was used in these cases, the classic mutilation stories that we've always heard. (01:46:42)
[George Knapp] : NIDS investigated those. And most of the cases they investigated did not show these kind of telltale signs of human intervention. Someone, mystery mutilators, have been carrying this out for decades over a broad part of the United States and other parts of the world. And then later, there were an additional level of mutilators who came in under the umbrella of this seemingly paranormal mystery who operated with impunity, thinking they can get away with it. No one's really going to seriously investigate it because it's the space people doing these mysterious mutilations. (01:47:16)
[George Knapp] : There were cases on the ranch, for example, that defy explanation. I'm thinking of one in particular. There were something like 14 head of cattle that vanished, that you'd see the tracks lead out into the snow, and then the cow is gone as if it's sucked up into the sky. There were cases that the neighbors reported of cattle that seemed to have been dropped from the sky, their legs were broken. There were cases on the ranch, one in particular that we wrote about in the Hunt for the Skinwalker. The rancher and his wife had had all this bizarre activity on their property. (01:47:46)
[George Knapp] : They carry on. They were really financially strapped because of the loss of these very expensive animals. It's a Sunday morning. It's a bright, sunny day, quiet out there in the country. They go out to tag the ears of newborn calves. They had several calves on their pasture. They're going to tag the ears, which is a process that the ranchers do to identify these animals. There's a calf and its mom 50 yards from the house where they live. That's the first one they come to. (01:48:13)
[George Knapp] : They tag the ear of this newborn calf. They move off across the property. Again, very quiet. There's no obstruction. The weather is calm. They go off on the property. About 30 minutes or so later, a dog that's traveling with them alerts them that something's going on. So they look back at this calf, the first one that they had tagged, and the mom, the cow, is going around in circles. Its eyes are bulging out. (01:48:37)
[George Knapp] : It's obviously distressed. It's dragging its leg behind it. Rancher and his wife go back over there to where this this calf was. This calf is completely emaciated. It is wiped out. It is stripped of all its flesh. The only thing left is bones and hide. There's no blood in the animal. There's no blood on the ground. 75 pounds of meat gone. How did it happen? Why didn't they... why weren't they able to hear it? (01:49:01)
[George Knapp] : Could a predator... what predator comes and wipes out a calf and makes no sound and leaves no blood? NIDS team brought in a tracker, professional tracker, to look for animal tracks, to look for human tracks, vehicle tracks. Didn't find it. They took samples of that, sent it to two different pathology labs. The investigators figured out that two different cutting instruments had been used, something like a heavy machete to whack off chunks of flesh, and then something with the scalpel type precision. How does that happen? (01:49:33)
[George Knapp] : How does it happen in broad daylight that nobody sees it? Now, is that the mystery government mutilators? A team of commandos comes in completely undetected and wipes out this calf and leaves it there for people to find? Or is it something else? I think it's probably something else. Maybe Colin wants to add to that. (01:49:51)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, you know, it goes back to the idea that it's very, very easy for a team of people who are sampling, carrying out these illegal killings of cattle, sampling at night, because you've got two things that are working for you. And that is, number one, you've got this whole aura of UFOs associated with cattle mutilations, and no respectable veterinarian or no respectable police officer wants to have anything to do with this, if there's even the taint of quote-unquote aliens associated with it. And the second thing that you have going for you is you have the decomposition process, especially in summer. (01:50:42)
[Colm Kelleher] : I mean, the decomposition process of a cow is extremely rapid, because their entire rumen, which is the second or third stomach that they have, is loaded with bacteria and microorganisms, which actually chew up the entire flesh extremely quickly. So all you have to do if you are actually sampling an animal on the ground is wait for 48 hours, and pretty well all of the evidence is gone by means of Mother Nature. You don't even have to cover up your tracks. (01:51:17)
[Colm Kelleher] : All you have to do is take your samples and get out of there. But what George is saying is absolutely true. There were a small number of these cases that we documented, and they were obviously not the perpetrators that I've been talking about. There was something else going on. And we documented cases in Northern California that were... they also had this weird effect that George described of the case in Utah. We documented other cases in California, too. (01:51:52)
[Colm Kelleher] : So there was a small component of these that had this bizarre paranormal taint to it. And then you had this other large number of cases that were consistent with some kind of a sampling exercise. And, you know, it's the same kind of thing as the UFO phenomenon. The United States government used the UFO phenomenon as a way of covering up their special access programs. So maybe some sort of small contractor was using the UFO lore associated with cattle mutilations to also cover up their tracks. You know, same kind of thing. (01:52:32)
[Colm Kelleher] : There are levels of deception involved in investigating these kinds of anomalies. (01:52:38)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : George and Colm, I know you both have to go. So how about I read two questions and you can choose one of them. So this one comes from Steven Greenstreet. And he wants to know, what is the best piece of evidence of something paranormal occurring at Skinwalker Ranch? And I'll add an addendum. Best public piece of evidence. Okay, then the second question is Chris123456789 says, and this is a wonderful question. Okay, if there were no observer to witness these UAPs, Bigfoot, cattle mutilations, dark shadow, etc, would they still happen? (01:53:15)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : How much of these phenomenon are perhaps co-created by a consciousness observing them? Are these phenomenon independent entities with lives, history, goals, instincts of their own? Or are they manifestations for the benefit of a conscious observer, in our case, a human being? (01:53:30)
[George Knapp] : I think you should take that one, Colin. (01:53:36)
[Colm Kelleher] : Well, I mean, you have brought up the sort of, or your listener, that's a very sort of loaded question, because it does get into this whole sort of dichotomy between observer versus observed. It gets into sort of the quantum, these quantum realities of how, whether or not observers interfere with experiments at the quantum level. And also, it does sort of raise the question of what exactly is human consciousness. And, you know, one of the aspects that has been really intriguing me is in the last five to 10 years, there really has been a sort of a literal explosion of new people who are entering the field of, you know, the investigation of human consciousness. (01:54:39)
[Colm Kelleher] : And there, you know, some of these people are sort of taking a stance on human consciousness that is away from the standard dogma that we've had for about 100 years, which is that consciousness arises as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. And some of these people, like, you know, I can think of Bernardo Kastrup in the Netherlands, and Donald Hoffman, who is a professor at UC Irvine, Federico Fahin, who is literally the inventor of the microprocessor at Intel Corporation. I mean, talk about hard-nosed materialists, but I mean, he's written a book, or two books, I think, recently that are basically saying that consciousness may not arise as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. (01:55:33)
[Colm Kelleher] : We've got people like Edward, Professor Edward Kelly, at the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia. You know, and even in the biological arena, you've got Professor Robert Lanza, who's written a couple of books on biocentrism. I mean, these people are all saying the same thing, that, you know, consciousness is prime. You know, consciousness is really the sort of the mover and the shaker in this whole equation. So, you know, Bernardo Kastrup especially has sort of, in some of the blogs that he's written for Scientific American, and elsewhere, he's really reduced it down to sort of concepts that, you know, even a biologist like myself can understand. (01:56:22)
[Colm Kelleher] : And that is, you know, he's put out this concept, you know, of, you know, maybe our sense of reality is actually more like the dashboard of an aircraft, and that you're flying an aircraft via instruments. And outside this aircraft, there's a sort of a storm, and there's a whole load of different things happening. But the pilot of the aircraft is flying purely by use of this instrumentation. And so, you know, that the translation of the metaphor into human consciousness is that human perception is a function of the dashboard, and our five senses are essentially the instrumentation that we're flying with through life. (01:57:10)
[Colm Kelleher] : And outside these five senses, there's a whole world that we are not perceiving. And so, one hypothesis of the intersection of UFOs versus this sort of avant-garde way of looking at human consciousness is that maybe UFOs are outside the dashboard, and they seem to appear or disappear at sort of out of whim, or sort of in a very sort of fast way. Maybe they're outside this sort of dashboard, and that, you know, people in the future, as they attack the UFO phenomenon, we need sort of people who are part of this vanguard of human consciousness research, because there may be overlaps that we just have not looked at. And, you know, the sort of standard way of looking at the UFO phenomenon, especially sort of from the perspective of the military intelligence apparatus, is we are going to study only the UFO performance. (01:58:18)
[Colm Kelleher] : We're going to study only the five observables or the six observables, the parameters of a UFO that make it extremely unlikely that it is, you know, a special access program from the United States. And that's all we're going to do. Everything else is off the table because, quote-unquote, it's not a part of the mandate from the United States security apparatus. But guess what? You know, maybe the UFO phenomenon doesn't care at all about the security parameters of the United States and what constitutes security parameters and what constitutes a viable way of investigating this phenomenon. (01:59:02)
[Colm Kelleher] : Maybe the United States military is going to investigate using this narrow perspective and completely miss the boat. I mean, we've seen and heard snippets and rumors and innuendo that some of these tic-tac-toe pilots had long-term effects, you know, that might even include long-term effects on their psychology and maybe their health or maybe their consciousness. So I see going forward that, you know, we really need to broaden the scope of the UFO investigative framework as opposed to narrowing it. And I don't care what a bureaucrat from Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence decides to say what is part of the United States military perspective or not. (01:59:54)
[Colm Kelleher] : I don't think the UFO phenomenon really cares. (01:59:57)
[George Knapp] : As for the question from Stephen about the best evidence regarding the ranch of paranormal events, I'd answer it this way. I mean, you know, Robert Bigelow in an interview we did years ago and then another one last year, you know, it's maddening what happens at the ranch. It's frustrating in that whatever the intelligence is that's there, it calls the shots. We get to see what it allows us to see. The most compelling accounts come from eyewitnesses, the people who've been on the property. (02:00:29)
[George Knapp] : You know, Bigelow bought the ranch in the mid-90s. There's been a constant presence there since. The NID study, the OSAP study, and then the current efforts by Brandon Fugel, and all three of those groups have experienced the same kinds of things. It's never exactly the same. The only thing that's predictable is its unpredictability. A lot of the accounts, the very compelling stories are things that people see once and then it's gone. This intelligence, and I think it is an intelligence, plays games. (02:00:58)
[George Knapp] : It's a trickster. It messes with your mind. It always seems to know what you are going to do before you do it. So, dramatic incidents can happen, and there's nothing left behind to prove that it ever happened. But occasionally, it has a physical effect. It has physical, demonstrable, measurable effects. For example, what happens to the animals? You have cattle that are mutilated. You have cats that are carved up in the middle of the night in a snowstorm. Dogs that are incinerated. (02:01:29)
[George Knapp] : Horses that are slashed by these crypto creatures. Those things happen. They were documented. You have physical effects. For example, there were four large bulls during the NIDS era that were in this corral. The rancher and his wife are going to town. They've already lost a lot of different heads of livestock. They're in danger of going under financially. They say to each other, casually, boy, if something happens to one of those bulls, we're in big trouble. They come back and less than an hour later, all four of the bulls are gone. (02:01:57)
[George Knapp] : In a panic, they go looking for them. Somehow, those four bulls had been, in essence, dematerialized from the corral and crammed into this tiny storage shed adjacent to this corral. They're in there. The rancher finds them. They're kind of in a trance, crammed in there. You could not get these bulls into there with a forklift and a team of army commandos. But somehow, they got in there. They let the bulls out. (02:02:22)
[George Knapp] : The bulls kick off the side of it. They get out. They're very surly in a bad mood. Photos are taken. The subsequent physical effects that were measured by the NIDS guys were the entire metal corral had been magnetized, and it stayed magnetized for a couple of days. There are all these measurable EM effects and effects on equipment. For example, all three of those organizations have put all kinds of cameras out there, camera gear, both up on poles and in different places of the ranch, and they carry gear, compasses and other sensors to try to document effects. This phenomena, whatever it is, laughs at it. (02:02:59)
[George Knapp] : It will knock out compasses. Compasses will spin around. They're of no use. You have a camera. The batteries drain. The camera dies right before something happens where the camera would have been able to document it. It's infuriating. It's frustrating to try to document things, but it happens over and over again, over a period of almost close to 30 years now. So there are measurable effects. There was an ice circle that we documented during the NIDS period that the NIDS guys documented, an impossible thing that was carved in this tiny little thin layer of ice. (02:03:33)
[George Knapp] : They can't figure out how it happened. There was a there was one instance where something went up a 75-foot telephone pole where they had a camera and destroyed it. Destroyed it while another camera was watching it. Whatever did it was invisible. It's very frustrating. I think it's frustrating on purpose. It gives us glimpses of this other reality at times. There were holes in the sky that would appear and craft would come in and out. There were craft that seemed to fly directly into Skinwalker Ridge that defy our physics. (02:04:05)
[George Knapp] : There were other craft that were, you know, the rancher and the family there in the first years that they were there, they'd see these things. They're not trying to document it for a UFO audience. They're trying to survive out there on what they thought was their dream property. They end up giving it up and moving away because they were so frustrated by what happened to them. So it is difficult to document. (02:04:25)
[George Knapp] : It is a challenge to document it. But it's a it's an intriguing challenge. It's an exciting challenge. And it's one we have to take on. There is physical evidence that can be examined and investigated. A lot of the things that happen are not in the physical realm. That makes it more of a challenge, I would think. (02:04:41)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Thank you so much, George. Thank you so much, Colm. I appreciate it. There are more than 3,000 people watching. So say hello to them. Many of them are just expressing their thanks and plaudits toward you all. So thank you so much. It's a pleasure. It's been... it's a blessing. Thank you. (02:05:03)
[George Knapp] : Thanks, Kurt. Talk to you again. (02:05:05)
[Colm Kelleher] : Thank you. It's been really good to have this discussion. Enjoyable. (02:05:10)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Okay. And like I mentioned, we'll look into a part two in a few months. So if anyone has lingering questions, just write them down. Take care. I'll stick around to speak with the audience if I can. Thanks, Kurt. Bye-bye. Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, it's not a sickness like that. What I'm feeling. It's something else. It's not it's not a virus. It's nothing like that. (02:05:35)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : It's more... I can't talk about it. Okay, so let's see. Wolfstein, thank you. Jacob asks, what work can individuals do to contribute to the study of this? I believe somewhere around 35 minutes into this, maybe 40 minutes into this. Column outlined some of that. So I'll go and look into that. And I will try to timestamp that. Oral decoy says vertigo and anxiety. I can relate. Yeah, I would say that it's not vertigo, but anxiety. (02:06:06)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Wilheim says, Linda Moulton deserves an apologize. So I know what you mean an apology. And I, I don't want to talk about this publicly because it doesn't. It's not. It's like praying in public. It's not something that should be done. But I did apologize to Linda. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for your, your kind comments. A couple people were mentioned. Bernardo Castrop was mentioned. Donald Hoffman was mentioned. (02:06:37)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Just so you know, there's an interview with Bernardo Castrop. I'm going to link that it's going to be in the description. Same with Donald Hoffman on this channel. I think there's some of the best with them. And that's not because of myself. It's because I happen to catch them at great days. I'm there on their best behavior. And Donald Hoffman is also coming on live on Sunday with Yosha Bach to talk about consciousness. After Salvatore Pais and Gary Nolan, which will occur in a few weeks or so, I'm thinking of taking a lengthy break from this UFO content. (02:07:10)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : I tend to take matters on this channel extremely seriously, whether they're about consciousness theories, or physics, or what have you. And it's extremely destabilizing to me. I perhaps I shouldn't be taking them as seriously as I do. But I, but I, but I, I treat them. Well, I take them seriously. There's this quote by Rene Descartes, which said, which says something like, it says something like I've fallen unexpectedly into a deep whirlpool, and I can't stand at the bottom nor swim to the top. So that's much like how I feel. (02:07:46)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : And I want to also make sure that what I'm doing on this UFO topic is fresh, and salutary. And while the comment section is filled with plaudits, I want to make sure that the adulation or the approbation is directed toward the toe approach, or the questions asked. I want to make sure that, that I'm... well, I don't, I don't see it. And I, it doesn't mean it's not there. It's just that I don't see it. (02:08:12)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : So I need to be able to see it. And I also want to make sure that I'm, there's so much there. I want to make sure that this is, it's obvious that these videos are quite popular on the Toe Channel. They're the most popular. And I fear, I want to make sure that what I'm doing, I'm not doing, I'm not pursuing because it's favored. And it's so, like, I don't feel like I am, I feel like I'm genuine about it. (02:08:35)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : And I'm earnest. But I know how easy it is to delude oneself into pursuing what's popular. So I need to take some time and collect myself. I've seen people like even, even Jordan Peterson go down that route, where he has great work in psychology and religion. And now almost all of his content is about being anti-woke and so on. And I don't, I feel like he became embittered from that and followed some of the crowd. I need to make sure that I'm not doing that. (02:09:06)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : I need to make sure that what I'm doing is not selfish and not filled with perfidy, mendacity, lies, and deceit. Not that it is, not that it is, but I'm saying that I need to introspect some more. But I also do too much introspection. I'm a bit extreme on that. There is an upside to it, though, that it would give some of the UFO... let's think of the Toe Project as being split into two audiences, the UFO audience and then those who are more interested in the STEM fields. While it may be true that those who are in the STEM fields, like the theoretical math and physics, should be more interested in the phenomenon, and that learning a little bit about it can aid their understanding of STEM. While that's true, I think the flip side is also true where understanding even a modicum of the foundations of mathematics and physics may aid one's understanding of the phenomenon. (02:09:59)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : So perhaps it will give some of the people who are on the more UFO-oriented end of the Toe audience, or the Toe Project's audience, a chance to go through some of the other podcasts on this channel. In fact, there's a starter playlist that I've put together, sorted in terms of what's most entertaining slash informative slash easy to go through. I'll put a link to that in the description. Jasmine says, Are you going to address how ridiculously ignorant and disrespectful your chat is always when these topics are being discussed? (02:10:31)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Well, I wouldn't say my chat. It's so tricky. The chat that happens on the videos that are posted on this channel. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't have time to look through these when I'm speaking. And I do, with regard to Linda Moulton Howe, I do condemn the comments that speak ill of her, especially with derision. I don't think that one should be derogatory toward Linda or any guest. You can be derogatory toward me. (02:10:57)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : The Toe Project is about love. It's about clemency. So please, if you're being snide, and you're despising, then that's not the compassionate understanding that the Toe Project is trying to emulate. So I'll say that. Though, also keep in mind, keep in mind, hey, for something this fractious, this controversial, this topic that's so alarming. The comments are actually extremely civil. So that I'm surprised about while obviously there are, there are negative comments. I'm almost always surprised at how much positive comments there are. (02:11:39)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : There's so much that I want to say about that Linda Moulton Howe interview. There's so much that I regret. And so much that I, I just but I feel like what I would be doing would be justifying myself like a little child. And I don't want to do that. I just want to take my lumps. Though there's so much that is false that I've read, for example, Linda was under the impression that I didn't read or go through the material that she sent, which is false. I watched all of what she sent. (02:12:06)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : As for reading, well, she has plenty of work and there were tomes. So I wasn't able to read all of it, though I skimmed it. And I feel like that contributed to a negative impression of her toward me. I feel like my questions were ill timed. I feel like it's false to say that I was harder on her than I was on other guests. And someone keeps saying, yeah, but your average guest, what do you mean average? In statistics, you don't look at the average, you look at variance, like you have to look, there's something there higher order corrective terms, variance is one of them. (02:12:35)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Because if it unless the distribution is simple, then average means nothing. And I would say was in the variance of the channel, the way that I spoke with her. It doesn't mean that I spoke optimally. But I would I wouldn't say it was drastically different. And I do regret it. I do regret how it happened. Some people say, yeah, you didn't push back enough or you push back too much. My role on this toe channel is not to be a skeptic or to push back. (02:13:01)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : That's not how I see it. I don't think in terms of that. I don't even think in terms of well, how many I have to have one hard question per every five questions. I just wanted to know if she was aware of the criticisms of her work, which is why I kept bringing it up. I didn't hear the answers from her. So I would repeat questions. And thus we spent more time on the criticisms, quote unquote, criticisms, because I had to keep repeating the questions, because she would give an answer that was five to 10 minutes long, and I couldn't hear the response to my inquiry in there. (02:13:33)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Now there's someone like Lou Elizondo, who's infamous for not answering the question. So why is it any different with him? Well, the difference with Lou is that Lou is self-aware that he's not answering the questions directly. And we'll even bring it up like he'll either say, I can't answer it because of reasons x, y, and z. Or he'll parenthetically give an answer. So I'll give an answer that's parenthetically related or metaphorically related or thematically related. (02:14:02)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : And also there were shorter answers. Whereas with Linda, I would wait, I'm listening, I'm listening. I'm like, Linda, I didn't quite hear the answer to that. And also as for speaking with her for two and a half hours, the interview was essentially of unspecified time. And she had just come from proudly stating that she has more energy than she's ever had, and that she works 18 hour days and that she speaks at conferences for hours on end. So I didn't think it was uncouth to ask her, hey, can you answer a couple more questions? (02:14:33)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : I know we've been going for two and a half hours. In fact, I was taking her at her word when she said that she had more energy than she's ever had. Either way, I just have to move forward from that. Okay. Well, everyone, thank you. Take care, everyone. I appreciate you all being here. The podcast is now finished. If you'd like to support conversations like this, then do consider going to patreon.com slash c u r t j a i m u n g a l. That is Kurt J. Mungall. It's support from the patrons and from the sponsors that allow me to do this full-time. (02:15:10)
[host(Curt Jaimungal)] : Every dollar helps tremendously. Thank you. (02:15:12)
(2025-09-27)